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Post by mikael on Jun 4, 2019 9:02:36 GMT
An interesting article at Motor Sport Magazine's webpage about great / good / noteworthy overtakes:
www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/leclerc-channelled-villeneuve-monaco
Not in Formula One - "just" in karting - but I believe (or at least, imagine) that an overtake at the 135cc 100cc (*) (then the top class; a.k.a. "Formula K") World Championship final in 1977 (in Parma, Italy) is among the most spectacular overtakes ever. (I have not seen it "live"; but it is vividly described and pictured in, e.g., the book "Karting" (in Danish, 1980) by Aage Søndergaard.)
Mickey Allen (GB) was in fourth position, shadowing the three Italians Rovelli, Fabi (Corrado F., younger brother of Teo F.), and Andrea de Cesaris. At the corner, which henceforth became known as "Mickey's Corner", Mickey Allen overtook all three Italians!
Later, however, he had to surrender to Rovelli, who thus was crowned World Champion 1977.
de Cesaris (37), Rovelli (35), Fabi (38), Allen (29)
de Cesaris (37), Rovelli (35), Fabi (38), and Allen (29) are pulling away from the field.
Allen is overtaking the complete Italian trio. Yes, I do believe this is the very overtake!
(He might have utilized the "disorder" caused by Rovelli (35) simultaneously overtaking de Cesaris (37).)
Allen leading Rovelli, de Cesaris, and Fabi.
I found these excellent, spectacular photos at: russthompsonracing.com.
They are taken by Lynn Haddock.
(*)Edit: After a check I need to make a correction: The top karting class, "Formula K", was changed from 100cc to 135cc only in 1981. Thus in 1977, the top level raced also with the standard cylinder capacity of 100cc.
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Post by René on Jun 4, 2019 11:30:17 GMT
Great thread Mikael!
Let me start with this nice clip of some remarkable overtakes by Gilles Villeneuve.
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Post by René on Jun 4, 2019 11:33:21 GMT
And let me repeat this clip of the 1990 Mexican Grand Prix. Mansell's overtake on Berger in the Peraltada (what have they done to it?!) is majestic.
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Post by chrisb on Jun 4, 2019 19:02:15 GMT
when overtaking was real! great thread Mikael, who were the great overtakers? Stirling, Jimmy, Mika, Senna, Wattie, Ronnie, Gilles, but probably amongst my favourites was 1957 the Ring, Fangio's overtake of Pete Collins, pure class, Jimmy lapping Innes, at Monza and getting cut up, so let Dan by and Innes clashed with Dan and Jimmy overtook them both, pure brains, and of course 1967 Monza, albeit in probably the most dominant performance car ever built but still, last to 1st - that's not bad overtaking,
Wattie at Las Vegas was it? I know he came from the back of the grid twice and just overtook, huh DRS - not required thank you, everyone, just skill and a pretty good car
Mansell at Silverstone and 'that dummy' - still enjoy watching that oh and at the Hungaroring
Alain at Brazil in the TAG McLaren
Senna at Donnington
Mika vs Michael at Spa, magical,
I always felt there was an art to pure overtaking and I guess that is why DRS is such a drag to me and watching a maestro at work was always such a joy, the way it was set-up, perfected and then executed - I guess that is why MotoGP is so much more interesting as a good overtake is clean and slick, although that is not always the case, whereas in F1 nowadays - touch that button-
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Post by Carl on Jun 5, 2019 17:37:08 GMT
I suspect we all have one or two great passes in our résumés.  |
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Post by Carl on Jun 6, 2019 21:08:56 GMT
When I was younger and more bold, I once raced an Oldsmobile 442 in my Austin-Healey Sprite, along a winding rural road of fast curves parallel to Highway 101 in Ventura County. Because acceleration wasn't paramount, I could stay close behind. To the right as we approached a sharp left turn signalling a reentry into civilization, was a high earthen bank. Heavy brush to the left made the exit of this turn blind. Declining to brake in formation behind, I brazenly passed on the inside in the wrong lane and neatly went ahead through the corner. The two guys in the 442 were astonished and caught up to me at the traffic light to have a closer look at this madman who'd chanced a head-on collision. But it was night, and what I knew and they did not, is that the headlights of any car approaching from the other direction would illuminate the earthen bank.
No headlights, no risk, but I nonetheless received full credit for daring!
The Sprite was a lot of fun, but the electrics failed often and I knew one tow-truck driver by first name 
----------------
Editor: "Your account doesn't seem credible! Silence denotes doubt."
Reporter: "It happened just as I described."
Editor: "Few can accept that."
Reporter: "They may have assumed that the faster car was well driven. It was not. The Oldsmobile driver would lift approaching the faster curves, allowing me to stay close."
Editor: "You should have made that clear!"
Reporter: "Yes, but I was unaware any space for assumption existed between the lines."
Editor: "You clearly need a better editor!  ....say no more!" |
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Post by mikael on Jun 7, 2019 11:21:29 GMT
But it was night, and what I knew and they did not, is that the headlights of any car approaching from the other direction would illuminate the earthen bank.
A few years hence, it will probably be such that oncoming traffic can be seen on the screen of the car's navigation system. |
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Post by Carl on Jun 8, 2019 3:59:01 GMT
Three promising young drivers striving to emulate the boldness of my technique...  |
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Post by Carl on Jun 8, 2019 4:06:27 GMT
Great thread Mikael! Let me start with this nice clip of some remarkable overtakes by Gilles Villeneuve. Rene, I remember how amazed I was by the outside pass of Alan Jones at Tarzan Corner at the time and again now, by how he could be right on the edge most of the way around and still be fast as hell. Many of his greatest passes were in 1979 when his Ferrari was most competitive. Imagine the course of his career had the Scuderia continued to give him cars to match his greatness.
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Post by Carl on Jun 8, 2019 4:15:14 GMT
But it was night, and what I knew and they did not, is that the headlights of any car approaching from the other direction would illuminate the earthen bank.
A few years hence, it will probably be such that oncoming traffic can be seen on the screen of the car's navigation system. I agree, Mikael, and hope to be in a nursing home when all the challenge and fun are taken away Oh well, horse riders probably felt the same way when their freedoms were constricted by internal combustion  Why does "the progress of man" often seem to be downhill? |
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Post by René on Jun 9, 2019 10:36:28 GMT
Three promising young drivers striving to emulate the boldness of my technique... Great racing Carl! That's the one that Michael should have won, I remember it so well. Nothing to take away from Mears, great win but Michael was so strong all race I was convinved he was going to brake the Andretti/Indy jinx... Alexander Rossi is a great racer and proving more and more a talent lost to F1. |
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Post by René on Jun 9, 2019 10:42:52 GMT
What about this pass? Verstappen on Raikkonen at COTA 2017. I know Max exceeded track limits but it was still a great pass (even if it hurt me as a Ferrari fan). There was a lot of discussion about it at the time.
But when you look at this pass and compare it to Alex Zanardi's pass on Herta at Laguna Seca, a pass described by many as 'The Pass', then Max's move was clean as a whistle.
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Post by Carl on Jun 10, 2019 4:10:12 GMT
What about this pass? Verstappen on Raikkonen at COTA 2017. I know Max exceeded track limits but it was still a great pass (even if it hurt me as a Ferrari fan). There was a lot of discussion about it at the time. But when you look at this pass and compare it to Alex Zanardi's pass on Herta at Laguna Seca, a pass described by many as 'The Pass', then Max's move was clean as a whistle. The difference is in the rules. Formula One is obsessive/compulsive about track limits and IndyCar more relaxed. CART, at the time of the pass, allowed the occasional shortcut if no position was gained. In his favor, Zanardi was ahead at the time he bounced across the second apex. |
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Post by Carl on May 5, 2021 0:12:35 GMT
Like Aesop's legendary fable of the tortoise and the hare, it may be that Formula One has outsmarted itself and fallen behind Indycar. It was always otherwise until the prolonged and poisonous degradations of F1 by ecclestone and mosley and the bizarre misguidance of Adrian Newey, whose bargeboards, vanes and winglets allow single cars, away from the turbulent dirty air of other cars, to go faster in isolation. Although a genius, he seems never to have grasped that racing involves more than one car.
The technology in Indycar is at a lower level, but the racing has been better in recent years and it may soon be that talented young drivers choose to stay there. Better with a chance in an atmosphere of even competition than blinding speed in a game of thrones.
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....say no more!"
