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Post by charleselan on Jan 10, 2020 15:00:00 GMT
This is fascinating Mikael and I must read it in more detail later.
I am not sure if my memory is completely up to sped with this but some years back i read that a (or some) motorcycle companies in Europe had developed a very clean 2 Stroke engine, far cleaner than any four stroke engine. However if my understanding was correct it wasn't embraced by any other big manufacturer as they wanted the bike industry to be four stroke orientated.
Maybe things are changing and we will see the 2 Stroke return to predominance.
I remember listening to Gordon Murray's MS Podcast (several times in fact) and in it he says that his intention was to use a 2 Stroke engine in the Brabham car that was designed to follow the BT46 "Fan Car". Apparently all sorts of complications were to be overcome like excessive and brutal power output and big fuel consumption, but he was convinced that it would have worked.
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Post by Jamie on Jan 11, 2020 8:43:22 GMT
The most interesting news-item I have read for quite some time. From the MSM website:
This sounds so fantastic that I could hardly believe it is true! (April 1st - no, not quite yet ...) But why not? The two-stroke engine is really brilliant. Actually, the concept is, in itself, almost too fantastic to be true as well ...
And large ships have been using two-stroke diesel engines for ages, even with super-charging. So a revisit to the basic concept by F1 engineers is great indeed.
A quotation from Pat Symonds:
"I certainly think that the internal combustion engine has a long future and I think it has a future that’s longer than a lot of politicians realise because politicians are hanging everything on electric vehicles.
"There’s nothing wrong with electric vehicles but there are reasons why they are not the solution for everyone."
Yes! Yes, indeed, most politicians are currently under a "lock-in" to electric vehicles without really understanding what they are talking about.
Imagine the two-stroke engine experiencing a resurrection over the whole range of motor sport, from karts over motor cycles to Formula One cars - that would really be something!
Link to the article: www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/f1/two-stroke-engines-eco-fuel-f1-aims-be-greener-formula-e
P.S. Regarding the sub-headline:
"Formula 1's plan for green and noisy engines: two-stroke hybrids, running on synthetic fuel"
It's interesting that being noisy now has become a plus! That's not how it was in the 70's and 80's when two-stroke engines still were dominant in motor cycle racing. Then they couldn't be made quiet enough ...
I also thought this was some sort of joke when I read this Mikael......but I'm actually excited that F1 is even considering this. F1 levels of engineering and innovation applied to the two-stroke internal combustion process could really be something.....imagine the noise of a modern multi-cylinder two-stroke - how high would it rev!? Can't see whats in this for the major manufacturers though?.......perhaps this is the most prescient point about this, is F1 looking at a formula that puts the fans / constructors / enthusiasts needs first? Be the first time in a long while if so. |
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Post by chrisb on Jan 12, 2020 10:13:22 GMT
gosh, memories of two-strokes, brute power and a lot of smoke, scary but exciting, my kind of racing/ riding,
this could be very interesting, I am watching this space!
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Post by mikael on Dec 13, 2020 12:00:30 GMT
The growing size of the cars - something we have talked a good deal about; but I thought that the comparisons shown below are quite interesting. It must be on high time to include reasonable values of maximum length and maximum wheelbase in the regulations. The dimensions of the recent LMP1 cars seem reasonable; and they are also complex hybrid cars with safety cells, etc. Thus it seems possible that a Formula one car could be shrunk to a comparable size.
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Post by charleselan on Dec 13, 2020 12:14:00 GMT
Brilliant Mikael, that really brings it home as to how these F1 things have grown in length. Also the changing face of how cars have looked in profile over the decades, some beautiful and others downright ugly. I will leave it to choose for yourselves  . |
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Post by René on Dec 13, 2020 18:22:37 GMT
Pictures sometimes say more than words.
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Post by Carl on Dec 14, 2020 1:58:27 GMT
Brilliant post, Mikael!
If only design engineers gave as much thought to how overall dimensions and aerodynamics can benefit competition and less about the speed attainable by a single car by itself without regard for passing. When passing is so hard, the sport is constipated.  |
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Post by robmarsh on Dec 14, 2020 10:36:05 GMT
Brilliant Mikael, that really brings it home as to how these F1 things have grown in length. Also the changing face of how cars have looked in profile over the decades, some beautiful and others downright ugly. I will leave it to choose for yourselves . The 1995 Ferrari is the prettiest to my eye. Also the last pretty F1 car I think. I must admit though, that after hearing and watching Fernando drive the 2005 Renault around the Yas Marina circuit, I thought it looked very pretty compared to the modern cars though I thought it ugly at the time. |
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Post by robmarsh on Dec 14, 2020 10:43:06 GMT
Mikael, a very informative post, thank you. I know the first big leap in length was between 1995/97 when they lengthened and strengthened the nosebox/footwell for safety reasons. I know somewhere along the line they also lengthened and strengthened the rear crash structure. I did read somewhere that Mercedes lengthened their wheelbase for aero reasons and nothing to do with safety. Be that as it may I agree with your view that the LMP1 car length should be the maximum.
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Post by René on Dec 14, 2020 11:49:44 GMT
Yes, the growth of the cars is partly due to safety structures like in road cars. That's the good part.
But with the introduction of the hybrid technology, they have grown out of proportion. I mean, 575cm! That's almost 6 meters! That hardly fits in an average living room! Race cars should also be nimble and light. If this continues they will have to widen the Monaco hairpin! Rob, I agree the 1995 Ferrari is very pretty. And I have had the same experience that I like certain cars now more than at the time they raced. For instance the 2007 and 2008 cars, mainly the Ferrari and McLaren. They looked quite weird and cluttered with all those winglets and bargeboards but now they look quite impressive to my eyes. Fast and aggressive. That demo run of Alonso in the 2005 Renault was spectacular, wasn't it. It showed F1 is missing stuff right now. F1 used to be frightening when I first learned about it. That's completely gone, it's clinical now. Still impressive and ultra fast but too clinical.
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Post by robmarsh on Dec 14, 2020 12:59:33 GMT
Agreed Rene about what F1 is missing and how clinical it seems. I always thought F1 cars were frightening too and that just added to the whole sense of occasion, even if watching on TV. That 2005 demo run looked like it was just under control.
PS on an earlier post you made on another thread re racing in countries with dubious human rights issues you mentioned South Africa. The sad thing is, for F1's reputation, is that they only ever raced there under the apartheid government. The last race was in March 1993 and south Africa only became a full democratic state in April 1994.
Given the abject poverty in many places in South Africa and that the fees demanded by BCE ran into the hundreds of millions ie govt level spending, it would have been a complete social injustice had the Govt supported a South African grand Prix since 1994. I also think that any private enterprise supporting a Grand Prix in South Africa would have been sending the wrong message. The apartheid govt was prepared to spend massive amounts of money to show a semblance of normality to the rest of the world that they were prepared to support a Grand Prix, either directly or in the form of tax concessions. The same concept still applies today with many of the countries F1 visits.
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Post by chrisb on Dec 14, 2020 15:37:55 GMT
Mikael, thank you what a brilliant post, really reminds me of some great cars and fantastic memories, really puts into perspective just how large the modern cars are, they are huge! Colin Chapman would be in total denial that this was F1,
When I used to watch F1 more enthusiastically the cars seemed much more on a visual knife edge which was frightening and they sounded brilliant, whereas the speed today's cars achieve is mind boggling and their cornering is just beyond comprehension - however for me they don't have that same level of fear factor, in saying that Romain's accident was certainly scary but as you say chaps, they aren't as frightening as they used to be, which I guess is why motor bike racing resonates more with me now,
Great post Rob, that is the sobering fact, as there used to be a 'South African series' aka Tasman series with the likes of Stirling and Jimmy - Jimmy winning of course, and not sure when the 6 hour series ended but an awful lot of international drivers raced there as well, but now of course the financial situation is a real challenge and one wonders given the plight the world is in where else is threatened
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Post by charleselan on Dec 14, 2020 17:46:42 GMT
The sound of that 2005 Renault was something else over the weekend. I think it woke quite a few people up and not just because of the noise it made.
Not a great deal to argue with regarding the attractiveness of the 1995 Ferrari, just the right size for a F1 car and some classic lines. Mika's McLaren looks good also in side view but the narrow rear track did not give it that little bit of macho charisma a great F1 car needs.
It is quite surprising to see that the LMP1 car is so small in comparison with contemporary single seaters, a lesson there that could well be learnt for the open wheeled fraternity.
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Post by mikael on Dec 23, 2020 14:29:04 GMT
I came across this very nice short documentary about the early development of the turbocharged Renault (1977-1979). I recall how impressed I was, actually, of the quietness of the Renaults by the only GP I ever saw during my childhood: the 1978 Swedish GP. I think the movie somehow transfers this non-noisiness (relatively to the other cars at the time) quite well. (As I understand it, the higher the turbo pressure (and the higher the revs, of course), the more "brutal" the engines sounded (referring to the latter part of the 80's); but again, in the years '77-'79, the Renault turbo-cars certainly weren't that noisy.)
To be honest, I actually don't understand a single word of French(*); yet I think there's a lot in the movie to enjoy nonetheless. ((*) In school, we could choose between "Introduction to French" and "Extended German"; and I chose the latter; so I was never subjected to French classes - unfortunately.)
Link to Youtube: |
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Post by chrisb on Dec 24, 2020 9:31:18 GMT
Jenks described the early Turbo's as sounding like flattened Formula Fords -I disagreed as I quite like the sound of the Turbo's but I missed the ear popping screams of the naturally aspirated - especially when they changed gears - for some reason the Ligier V12's used to let out a loud bang when they changed gear at Brands which could cause permanent damage -
great clip Mikael
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