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Post by charleselan on Dec 29, 2019 13:07:18 GMT
This is the third film from the 1967 season which Castrol made at the German GP, it is superb and I am certain that some of the footage was used for "9 Days In Summer". The commentary is detailed and almost like a DSJ report, the man himself makes a brief appearance in the film as well.
The on board footage following Hubert Hahne in his F2 Lola BMW is surely done with a Formula Vee race car judging by the front suspension and skinny tyres.
Brilliant; brilliant film.
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Post by chrisb on Dec 30, 2019 8:04:35 GMT
I have found two different films of his race, both wonderful and the sound is just awesome
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Post by charleselan on Dec 30, 2019 15:50:43 GMT
Viewing that race again yesterday made me think that it was probably a finer drive by Dan Gurney than his earlier win at Spa. Goodness that guy was so unlucky it just beggars belief at times. I think that had Jim not have had issues with his 49 he would have had his hands full with Dan in that race, the big man was positively outstanding.
Although Denny's win was somewhat fortunate he completely eclipsed his boss on this challenging circuit, underlining just how good "The Bear" was. Also what a drive by JYS in that cumbersome "lightweight" H16 BRM but like Mr Gurney it all came to nought.
We then had Jaques Bernard Ickx in the F2 Matra, a simply sublime performance by young phenomena that also went unrewarded.
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Post by mikael on Dec 31, 2019 6:17:47 GMT
Thank you for posting the movie, JC; it is indeed an absolute pleasure to watch. Yes, it really was heartbreak for Dan Gurney, after it looked so good with just three laps remaining. (But of course, three laps on that circuit was still 1/5 of the race, and something like 25 minutes of driving.) Not much is being told about qualifying, except that Jim Clark took the pole position; but in the movie (at 12:50), before the race start, one can notice a newspaper "menu" saying "Jim Clark fuhr Traum-Record" (Jim Clark drove dream lap record). Checking the race report on Wikipedia, I found the following qualification times: Pos No Driver Constructor Time Gap 1 3 United Kingdom Jim Clark Lotus–Ford 8:04.1 2 2 New Zealand Denny Hulme Brabham–Repco 8:13.5 + 9.4 3 11 United Kingdom Jackie Stewart BRM 8:15.2 +11.1 4 9 United States Dan Gurney Eagle–Weslake 8:16.9 + 12.8 5 10 New Zealand Bruce McLaren Eagle–Weslake 8:17.7 +13.6 6 7 United Kingdom John Surtees Honda 8:18.2 +14.1 7 1 Australia Jack Brabham Brabham–Repco 8:18.9 +14.8 8 8 New Zealand Chris Amon Ferrari 8:20.4 +16.3 9 5 Austria Jochen Rindt Cooper–Maserati 8:20.9 +16.8 10 6 Mexico Pedro Rodríguez Cooper–Maserati 8:22.2 +18.1 11 12 United Kingdom Mike Spence BRM 8:26.5 +22.4 12 14 Switzerland Jo Siffert Cooper–Maserati 8:31.4 +27.3 13 4 United Kingdom Graham Hill Lotus–Ford 8:31.7 +27.6 14 17 West Germany Hubert Hahne Lola–BMW ? ? So indeed a dream-lap for Clark: more than 9 seconds faster than #2! Otherwise the times increase steadily down the field. Ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_German_Grand_Prix |
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Post by chrisb on Dec 31, 2019 9:01:12 GMT
sums up it all for me Mikael, but then Jimmy was on pole in 1963, 2nd quickest [by 0.00.4] in 1964 - on pole by nearly 4 seconds in 1965 [to a brilliant JYS] pole in 1966 by 1.5 seconds but in a 2 ltr Coventry Climax engined Lotus to a 3ltr Cooper Maserati- what more can be said,
for the 67 race, Jimmy would have had a fight on his hands but when you watch him in say the 65 Dutch GP he just drags that little bit more every lap and before you know where he is - he is long gone, so yea Dan and Denis, fantastc racers both would have statyed with him for a time but for Colin's OCD with weight Jimmy would have walked away, there is a story that one of the mechanics tried to beef up the suspension on Jimmy's car but was spotted by ACBC and prevented from doing so and thereafter sidelined, no idea if true but would have summed up Chapman,
the other thing was that Dan's Eagle had around the same BHP as the Cossie and that always seemed to have been overlooked, but wouldn't it have been fabulous had that Eagle been blessed with more investment and been more reliable, what a season that would been, if only...
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Post by charleselan on Dec 31, 2019 15:54:27 GMT
The Lotus 49 was a pretty fragile car initially, Jim's incredible finesse keeping it running when others just made it fall apart. It got considerably beefed up in "B" spec with Jochen driving alongside Graham.
I think that the Cosworth DFV might have had a bit more power than the Weslake V12 Chris, also the Eagle's engines were often pretty variable in their power output and nowhere near as consistent as the DFV.
The other thing to remember is the fact that the beautiful Eagle was a heavy car largely as a result of it being to all intent and purpose an Indy car. Dan realised this and gradually they tried lightening the chassis which culminated in the titanium car that was quite exotic and lighter, but still heavy in comparison with the Lotus etc.
Jim's pole lap was an immense performance in a less than perfect car that was not only fragile but also with a power delivery that was like switching on an electric light, all or nothing. However I do think that had they both continued Dan would have been very close to Jim, he just went faster and faster as the race progressed in a car that was still being settled into the circuit. Dan was also exceptional at the Nurburgring when he had a half decent car at his disposal, just the same at the other great road circuits of the time at Spa and Rouen.
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Post by chrisb on Jan 1, 2020 11:41:11 GMT
totally JC, it was a crying shame the Eagle wasn't a bit more reliable, Dan's early drives at Monza and Watkins Glen did show us the potential the Eagle had but it was the frustrations with Colin's need for excessive fragility that always got to me, but what a marvel it was
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Post by charleselan on Jan 1, 2020 12:37:12 GMT
totally JC, it was a crying shame the Eagle wasn't a bit more reliable, Dan's early drives at Monza and Watkins Glen did show us the potential the Eagle had but it was the frustrations with Colin's need for excessive fragility that always got to me, but what a marvel it was Colin always pushed the boundaries Chris, and there were those that questioned the strength or whatever it was with some of his designs where failures seem to happen too often like the F1 Lotus 18 in 1960, and then some of the much later cars like the 49 and early 72. No matter what they will always be my favourite marque; most are things of genuine beauty. |
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Post by Carl on Jan 2, 2020 0:41:23 GMT
This is the third film from the 1967 season which Castrol made at the German GP, it is superb and I am certain that some of the footage was used for "9 Days In Summer". The commentary is detailed and almost like a DSJ report, the man himself makes a brief appearance in the film as well. The on board footage following Hubert Hahne in his F2 Lola BMW is surely done with a Formula Vee race car judging by the front suspension and skinny tyres. Brilliant; brilliant film. A fascinating highlight film!
At one point, young David Hobbs appears unidentified between Jackie Stewart and John Surtees. Hobbs qualified his Lola-BMW midway on the Formula 2 grid, like nearly everyone, considerably behind the awesome Jacky Ickx and like the entire field, miles behind the amazing Jim Clark.
Sausage with mustard and some rye bread followed by ice cream was the lunch of choice on a hot day. Those who camped and cooked for themselves ate much better and had choice views chosen well in advance.
Not sure John Cooper was a maestro by then. The Cooper revolution was brilliant but short-lived and others soon led with brilliant innovations Cooper seemed unable to duplicate.
I am in love with the woman who appears too briefly at 24:25  |
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Post by charleselan on Jan 2, 2020 16:06:01 GMT
This is the third film from the 1967 season which Castrol made at the German GP, it is superb and I am certain that some of the footage was used for "9 Days In Summer". The commentary is detailed and almost like a DSJ report, the man himself makes a brief appearance in the film as well. The on board footage following Hubert Hahne in his F2 Lola BMW is surely done with a Formula Vee race car judging by the front suspension and skinny tyres. Brilliant; brilliant film. A fascinating highlight film!
At one point, young David Hobbs appears unidentified between Jackie Stewart and John Surtees. Hobbs qualified his Lola-BMW midway on the Formula 2 grid, like nearly everyone, considerably behind the awesome Jacky Ickx and like the entire field, miles behind the amazing Jim Clark.
Sausage with mustard and some rye bread followed by ice cream was the lunch of choice on a hot day. Those who camped and cooked for themselves ate much better and had choice views chosen well in advance.
Not sure John Cooper was a maestro by then. The Cooper revolution was brilliant but short-lived and others soon led with brilliant innovations Cooper seemed unable to duplicate.
I am in love with the woman who appears too briefly at 24:25 Interestingly Carl, model car manufacturer Spark have just released a 1/43rd scale model of David Hobbs F2 Lola BMW from this race. Quite a strange choice I would have thought but obviously there are many other versions they could do and Spark have also released a number of the other F2 cars that ran in this race. Quite agree about the reference to John Cooper, he did bring about the mid engined concept but really failed to capitalise upon it. One has to wonder how much of his early success was due to Jack and Bruce and their excellent engineering and driving prowess. Both went on to much greater things as manufacturers did they not? |
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Post by Carl on Jan 2, 2020 17:03:03 GMT
A fascinating highlight film!
At one point, young David Hobbs appears unidentified between Jackie Stewart and John Surtees. Hobbs qualified his Lola-BMW midway on the Formula 2 grid, like nearly everyone, considerably behind the awesome Jacky Ickx and like the entire field, miles behind the amazing Jim Clark.
Sausage with mustard and some rye bread followed by ice cream was the lunch of choice on a hot day. Those who camped and cooked for themselves ate much better and had choice views chosen well in advance.
Not sure John Cooper was a maestro by then. The Cooper revolution was brilliant but short-lived and others soon led with brilliant innovations Cooper seemed unable to duplicate.
I am in love with the woman who appears too briefly at 24:25 Interestingly Carl, model car manufacturer Spark have just released a 1/43rd scale model of David Hobbs F2 Lola BMW from this race. Quite a strange choice I would have thought but obviously there are many other versions they could do and Spark have also released a number of the other F2 cars that ran in this race. Quite agree about the reference to John Cooper, he did bring about the mid engined concept but really failed to capitalise upon it. One has to wonder how much of his early success was due to Jack and Bruce and their excellent engineering and driving prowess. Both went on to much greater things as manufacturers did they not? John Charles, Excellent point about Brabham and McLaren's contributions to Cooper's success and certainly right! Also, as you said earlier, the well-driven camera car following Hubert Hahne's F2 Lola is clearly a Formula Vee. No other racing car type would have chosen the standard 1930s Volkswagen front suspension!
An abiding memory of John Cooper is his refusal to accept that something breaking on the car almost killed Brian Redman at Spa in 1968. Cooper, portrayed as a legend in current BMW/Mini Cooper advertising, went to the hospital demanding to know what Redman had done wrong! A photographer's image of the exact moment the right front suspension arm fractured proved what an ass he was.
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Post by chrisb on Jan 3, 2020 13:58:06 GMT
I actually met John Cooper once at his garage in Sussex, the fact he was quite willing to stop and talk to an ageing F1 fan always struck me as being rather generous, and he was interesting and left me grateful that he should take such time out to speak with me
my overall observation of Cooper Cars was one of a lack of sophistication, he seemed to suit those rough and tough days of the 50's but lost his way in the 60's, I also wondered what part Charles Cooper played, certainly he controlled the purse strings - which caused Bruce at least to form his own team for the Tasman series, but the anger he had for Brian after that terrible accident was so strange, he was livid, I really didn't understand his reaction and it certainly soured my opinion of him, but overall he really must have benefitted from Jack and Bruce, I've not read any books on Cooper so don't know much about the dynamics of the team in 1960-66 until Roy Salvadori became involved and John seemed sidelined, however he did go down in history and there aren't that many who can claim that?
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Post by charleselan on Jan 4, 2020 18:02:31 GMT
Interestingly Carl, model car manufacturer Spark have just released a 1/43rd scale model of David Hobbs F2 Lola BMW from this race. Quite a strange choice I would have thought but obviously there are many other versions they could do and Spark have also released a number of the other F2 cars that ran in this race. Quite agree about the reference to John Cooper, he did bring about the mid engined concept but really failed to capitalise upon it. One has to wonder how much of his early success was due to Jack and Bruce and their excellent engineering and driving prowess. Both went on to much greater things as manufacturers did they not? John Charles, Excellent point about Brabham and McLaren's contributions to Cooper's success and certainly right! Also, as you said earlier, the well-driven camera car following Hubert Hahne's F2 Lola is clearly a Formula Vee. No other racing car type would have chosen the standard 1930s Volkswagen front suspension!
An abiding memory of John Cooper is his refusal to accept that something breaking on the car almost killed Brian Redman at Spa in 1968. Cooper, portrayed as a legend in current BMW/Mini Cooper advertising, went to the hospital demanding to know what Redman had done wrong! A photographer's image of the exact moment the right front suspension arm fractured proved what an ass he was.
Carl, I had forgotten about John Cooper's "brain fade" regarding that accident to Brian Redman, as you say what a complete arse to have behaved that way in such terrible circumstances. Poor Brian was very lucky to get away with his life in that accident. From my recollections Cooper would have had little influence in the team by that time (1968), and they were far from front runners. With respect to who made the team what they were in their height, I would have to say that Jack Brabham was responsible for most of the input into the cars from 1958 - 1961, it was Jack who brought about the concept of the very successful "low-line" Cooper of 1960. After he left to form his own team it then became apparent that Bruce McLaren took on the mantle. For instance the Tasman cars that Bruce and Timmy Mayer drove were to all intent and purpose McLaren's but out of deference to his then employer Bruce called them Coopers. Probably Cooper's greatest years were the 1950's when they had the hugely successful F3 500cc race cars and the development of that concept into little sports racers and then F2 into F1 cars. After that, as Chris suggests, refinement and sophistication bypassed them and the likes of Chapman and Broadley etc took things to another level. JC |
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Post by chrisb on Jan 5, 2020 9:51:14 GMT
I listened to a Chris Amon interview recently, where he was talking about his time with Reg [and Tim] Parnell and drove the Lola in 1963/4 that John Surtees had raced in 62 and how he then went to the Lotus 25 and realised just how good John was, saying he difference between the Lola and the lotus was so massive and it was if they belonged to different era's.
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Post by mikael on Jan 10, 2020 13:45:00 GMT
The most interesting news-item I have read for quite some time. From the MSM website:
This sounds so fantastic that I could hardly believe it is true! (April 1st - no, not quite yet ...) But why not? The two-stroke engine is really brilliant. Actually, the concept is, in itself, almost too fantastic to be true as well ...
And large ships have been using two-stroke diesel engines for ages, even with super-charging. So a revisit to the basic concept by F1 engineers is great indeed.
A quotation from Pat Symonds:
"I certainly think that the internal combustion engine has a long future and I think it has a future that’s longer than a lot of politicians realise because politicians are hanging everything on electric vehicles.
"There’s nothing wrong with electric vehicles but there are reasons why they are not the solution for everyone."
Yes! Yes, indeed, most politicians are currently under a "lock-in" to electric vehicles without really understanding what they are talking about.
Imagine the two-stroke engine experiencing a resurrection over the whole range of motor sport, from karts over motor cycles to Formula One cars - that would really be something!
Link to the article: www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/f1/two-stroke-engines-eco-fuel-f1-aims-be-greener-formula-e
P.S. Regarding the sub-headline:
"Formula 1's plan for green and noisy engines: two-stroke hybrids, running on synthetic fuel"
It's interesting that being noisy now has become a plus! That's not how it was in the 70's and 80's when two-stroke engines still were dominant in motor cycle racing. Then they couldn't be made quiet enough ...
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