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Post by mikael on Oct 15, 2018 3:15:52 GMT
A very flimsy chassis indeed by the 908/3. Note how the accelerator is outside of the A-shaped reinforcement in the front -- so it was not made for safety reasons ...  The space-frame chassis of a 917. Slightly safer, maybe - but not much ...  |
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Post by Carl on Oct 15, 2018 3:24:10 GMT
A very flimsy chassis indeed by the 908/3. Note how the accelerator is outside of the A-shaped reinforcement in the front -- so it was not made for safety reasons ... According to Brian Redman, every 908 driver knew that their feet were horribly exposed in case of frontal impact. Racing was different then...  |
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Post by René on Oct 15, 2018 19:14:43 GMT
Also in Formula One the position of the driver moved more and more forward because that suited the aerodynamics. The designers were not interested in driver safety, only performance. The feet of the driver are clearly positioned in front of the imaginary front axle in this Lotus 81.  |
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Post by Carl on Oct 15, 2018 20:20:05 GMT
Also in Formula One the position of the driver moved more and more forward because that suited the aerodynamics. The designers were not interested in driver safety, only performance. I never understood how a driver almost on top of the front end could quickly sense rear end slides. Nonetheless, they did.
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Post by René on Oct 15, 2018 22:30:14 GMT
Also in Formula One the position of the driver moved more and more forward because that suited the aerodynamics. The designers were not interested in driver safety, only performance. I never understood how a driver almost on top of the front end could quickly sense rear end slides. Nonetheless, they did.
I guess because they were the best drivers in the world. |
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Post by Carl on Oct 16, 2018 1:53:35 GMT
I never understood how a driver almost on top of the front end could quickly sense rear end slides. Nonetheless, they did.
I guess because they were the best drivers in the world. Yep  |
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Post by chrisb on Oct 16, 2018 8:05:18 GMT
Mikael, many thanks my friend, one thing for certain the modern WRC are far safer than the brutes called Group B, and having driven one [the Toyota Celica] I can testify to their sheer power, and the gorgeous noises they made, but as I said earlier this year I really loved the hairy scary days but I am so relieved not to read someone else's obituary every Monday morning, which, incidentally I saw a clip of the 1985 RAC Rally with the enormously talented and sadly missed Henri Toivonen winning, but it was the Lombard RAC rally press officer who really got to me, his attitude was so symptomatic of why tragedies happened, in those days there were no pace notes, very little rest and a feat of endurance, and he was saying - well the format hasn't changed for 40 years - why should it? just because the cars are flimsier than they were - all the crews want extra rest for is to repair their flimsy and fragile cars, no, you imbecile these are 400bhp monsters that require a sustained level of concentration, the great William Wollard who was brilliant, was very politely challenging and everyone who must have seen it must have seen the stupidity of the responses.
sheeeeeet, how flimsy were those cars?? the 908 and 917's I must have forgotten just how fragile these cars really were - ouch and yet chaps with far greater knowledge than I - I vaguely recollect only one fatal accident in a 917? is that right?
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Post by chrisb on Oct 16, 2018 8:06:32 GMT
when you look at those F1 cars where the driver is basically sitting between the wheels - don't they just look so dangerous.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 14:03:30 GMT
The front end of the T4.
Publicists have always claimed that the relative position of the driver's feet with respect to the front axis represent a measure of passive safety of a chassis. The relative safety of the driver's legs in case of frontal impact depends on the effectiveness structure in front of the feet. Without such a structure, it is meaningless whether the feet are ahead or behind the front axis, as the wheels have negligible, or indeed no impact absorption capability, they are as strong as the suspension arms they are attached to, not a lot, as the arms are very slender and will buckle with a minor impact.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 16, 2018 15:59:01 GMT
Mikael, many thanks my friend, one thing for certain the modern WRC are far safer than the brutes called Group B, and having driven one [the Toyota Celica] I can testify to their sheer power, and the gorgeous noises they made, but as I said earlier this year I really loved the hairy scary days but I am so relieved not to read someone else's obituary every Monday morning, which, incidentally I saw a clip of the 1985 RAC Rally with the enormously talented and sadly missed Henri Toivonen winning, but it was the Lombard RAC rally press officer who really got to me, his attitude was so symptomatic of why tragedies happened, in those days there were no pace notes, very little rest and a feat of endurance, and he was saying - well the format hasn't changed for 40 years - why should it? just because the cars are flimsier than they were - all the crews want extra rest for is to repair their flimsy and fragile cars, no, you imbecile these are 400bhp monsters that require a sustained level of concentration, the great William Wollard who was brilliant, was very politely challenging and everyone who must have seen it must have seen the stupidity of the responses. sheeeeeet, how flimsy were those cars?? the 908 and 917's I must have forgotten just how fragile these cars really were - ouch and yet chaps with far greater knowledge than I - I vaguely recollect only one fatal accident in a 917? is that right? Hi Chris, William Wollard was very good and I always looked forward to his presentations of the RAC Rally for many years, a quality presenter, something the BBC seem to lack these days in most fields. Can't remember who the RAC Press Officer was for the Rally, was it the same guy who was in charge of all RAC approved events which would include the Grand Prix. I have memories of being very annoyed and completely unmovable when in 1990 I had applied for passes for the Grand Prix at Silverstone and had not received any credentials. So i travelled up on the Friday morning and went into the Press Accreditation Office which was parallel to the main entrance and asked said the then PO, Colin Wilson ex of Motoring News, where they were. He replied that I wasn't getting a pass as they were in short supply. I replied that I had them for the past 10 years and had supplied all of the correct covering material from the publications that I was working for. He again refused, so I stood right in front of the guy and kept repeating over and over, "So you are telling me I can't have a pass". He was getting quite jumpy after about the sixth utterance and spluttered that he might have some spare the following day as some journalists might not turn up. My reply was "Not good enough pal", would you like me to have a word with my friend Neil Eason-Gibson who was high up in the RAC, and a good patron to me over the years. Needless to say a pass was forthcoming very soon afterwards! Obviously the guy had never really looked at those guys after completing a few stages in those Group B machines. Everyone of those drivers and navigators were legends and heroes, probably the last really heroic motor sporting participants that i have seen. The deaths of Henri, and Attilio Bettega along with their co-drivers, were tragic in the extreme but with those cars it was bound to happen with a place like Corsica which is a hugely demanding tarmac rally. You could always sense the tension in the drivers back then when they entered a service halt, those cars took some b*lls to drive, can't imagine what it was like on the 1000 Lakes in Finland. Cheers John |
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Post by charleselan on Oct 17, 2018 12:00:49 GMT
Further to my above post and Chris' comment about a fatality in a Porsche 917. The only one I can think of involved poor John Woolf who tragically died at Le Mans in 1969 during the very early stages of the race. The car in its earliest incarnation was a beast of a car and many felt that John Woolf should never have been in such a car as he wasn't a professional racer of the time. It took men like Rolf Stommelen and Vic Elford to handle those pre JW cars.
At the Nurburgring 1000kms of that year none of the factory drivers had a taste for driving the cars as they preferred the 908/2 Spyders, so Porsche (to quote the legend Frank Gardner) "conscripted" Gardner and David Piper.
Apparently the space frame chassis tubes were pressurised with gas and had a pressure gauge for the driver to view in case of any fractures, and there were many. To quote Frank from his wonderful book "Castrol Racing Drivers Manual":-
"The German chassis engineers sat me in it and the first thing I noticed was this odd little pressure gauge on the dash panel. I asked what it was for they said, 'Ah, Herr Gardner, to zat you vill pay der grosse attention, und ven der needle drops to der zero you vill drive ze wagon mit care back to der boxen' ".
After Frank had found out the implications of this happening, he responded, "So I came back to the engineers and explained that if this bloody thing zeroed i wasn't about to drive it 'mit care' back to the pits or anywhere else for that matter. I'd park the bastard and walk back....."
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Post by mikael on Oct 17, 2018 12:51:54 GMT
Apparently the space frame chassis tubes were pressurised with gas ...
Amazing!
To "float" the structure with a light gas, similar to helium-filled tyres?
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Post by chrisb on Oct 17, 2018 16:19:52 GMT
John, that is such a lovely story about the press officer, and has made me smile, thank you mon ami, I think he was Lombard, but it was his self-righteousness that irritated me and I am guessing the ever calm William, whose questions were relentless but fun to watch this PR soul claim otherwise,
Glad to hear you finally got your pass, it may have been a bit 'looser' back then but still enjoy hearing when the PR baloney gets a comeuppance
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Post by chrisb on Oct 17, 2018 16:21:25 GMT
Ah the great and legendary Frank Gardner, surely one of the all-time great racers and quippers, I really must get his book - thank you John for that wonderful reminder of his personality
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Post by charleselan on Oct 17, 2018 18:20:50 GMT
Ah the great and legendary Frank Gardner, surely one of the all-time great racers and quippers, I really must get his book - thank you John for that wonderful reminder of his personality Chris, I cannot recommend the Frank Gardner book, that I have mentioned above, enough. In fact I found it the most enjoyable and also hilarious motor sport tome I have ever read. The man's humour is of another world and just had me in stitches, I urge you to look out for a copy. It was first published in October 1973 and was written with the help of Doug Nye. The only other book I have ever read that had the same level of humour was Spike Milligan's "My Part in the Downfall of Adolf Hitler" (or words to that effect); the stories in both books just fitted my idea of what humour should be. John |
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