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Post by mikael on Oct 11, 2018 3:03:08 GMT
On a "casual Google search" on Björn Waldegard I came across the attached photo of him in a Porsche 908/3 at the 1970 Targa Florio. This was a real surprise to me; I had no idea he had done something like that -- but it may offer some explanation of his mastery of tarmac stages. (According to the source given below, he shared the 908 with Richard Attwood, and they came home in 4th position.) Source: www.snaplap.net/driver/bjorn-waldegard/ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 9:18:17 GMT
Munari won the Targa Florio with Merzario on the PB in 1972:   |
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Post by charleselan on Oct 11, 2018 10:39:17 GMT
On a "casual Google search" on Björn Waldegard I came across the attached photo of him in a Porsche 908/3 at the 1970 Targa Florio. This was a real surprise to me; I had no idea he had done something like that -- but it may offer some explanation of his mastery of tarmac stages. (According to the source given below, he shared the 908 with Richard Attwood, and they came home in 4th position.) Source: www.snaplap.net/driver/bjorn-waldegard/A great bit of research Mikael as that was one of the occasions I remember Björn Waldegaard taking part in a race meeting, he also raced 911's and I have a feeling he did the Le Mans 24 Hour race as well, but not certain without looking it up. The likes of Sandro Munari; Gerard Larrousse; and Walter Rohrl were specialists in pace note tarmac rallies so transcended easily to race driving. However the Scandinavians were born to rally on loose surface and without notes, that is why Björn is an exception at that time and raced at such a level. Of course they all were good on tarmac and using pace notes, none more so than Marku Alen, goodness knows why he never became a World Rally Champion, a Finn with Italian blood coursing through his veins. |
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Post by René on Oct 11, 2018 13:07:34 GMT
Great times when many of the top line drivers where multidisciplinary.
Love the design 'simplicity' of the 908/3 and 312PB. Super short wheelbase, looking from the top almost square. I can imagine you can 'throw' them around a corner almost like a rally car.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 13:36:21 GMT
I did recall right, Jean Claude Andruet, multiple WRC winnner, was un habitue' aux Mans, usually with Ballot-Lena as co-driver and on a 512BB.
I had hardly registered, in fact I just surprised myself that Waldegaard passed away a few years back. What a shame.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 11, 2018 13:59:47 GMT
Great times when many of the top line drivers where multidisciplinary. Love the design 'simplicity' of the 908/3 and 312PB. Super short wheelbase, looking from the top almost square. I can imagine you can 'throw' them around a corner almost like a rally car. What an incredible bit of film footage René, absolutely outstanding. So many things one could comment about, the brilliant little car; the amazing circuit and the guy driving Chris ? was not shy of giving it the business. The 908 series of Porsche prototypes were fantastic cars, the 908/2 was my favourite, but the 908/3 was a purpose built little monster for the Targa and Nurburgring. I did not get to see one driven in anger as a works car but saw Herr Joest race his in a Classic meeting at Silverstone mid 70's, he was quick in it. Later he fitted a turbo and it then gradually developed into the 936. I used to read about Solitude back in the 1960's and the Formula One race there each year which was a non championship meeting. Only recently have I seen film coverage of it, like this wonderful film attached here; it must have been an amazing track and could easily rival Spa and Rouen. No wonder Jim Clark was so good there. What a glorious sound that 3 litre "flat" 8 motor makes as well, a real racing engine with a real gearbox and change. |
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Post by chrisb on Oct 12, 2018 6:27:44 GMT
was it a 908/3 that Brian had his nasty at Targa? when you look at the clip, oh and that sound!! heaven, these cars looks so dangerously flimsy but the thrill must have been so awesome, I would really understand why people raced these things at the speed they went, just so impressive.
Trying to get hold of any clips of the F1 races at Solitude race track, it really looks scary but hairy and as we say these days "challenging' - the only pictures I have is when it was so wet I wondered if they shouldn't have used boats but the control you needed to race well there must have been so special.
cheers Rene for the clip, not sure my neighbours have appreciated it at 07:15 a.m. but tough. what a sound to wake up to!
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Post by charleselan on Oct 12, 2018 10:28:34 GMT
Those cars were incredibly delicate, and the Porsche 908's were very light with space frame chassis. I seem to recall that Seppi Siffert qualified a 908/2 at the Brands Hatch 1000kms in 1969 with a time that would have put him on the second or third row of the Grand Prix that year. Jenks was pretty impressed with that from his writings in Motorsport.
Björn Waldegard did in fact drive in the Le Mans 24 hour race, taking part in 1971 with surprise; surprise a Porsche 911RS,
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Post by chrisb on Oct 12, 2018 11:07:11 GMT
I know Walter Rhorl also raced a 935 and I seem to think he won the 6-hour race at Silverstone one year - Interesting that rally drivers could master another aspect of motor sport, Colin testing the Jordan is another example, but few could do it the other way, now I wonder who could?
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Post by charleselan on Oct 12, 2018 11:29:34 GMT
Chris,
Walter Rohrl also raced an Audi Quattro in the American Trans Am series, as well as a Porsche 968 (the front engined derivative of the 924).
I think that Sebastian Ogier is an exceptional driver, like his fellow countryman Sebastian Loeb and both have impressed when driving circuit race cars.
John
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Post by mikael on Oct 12, 2018 15:06:44 GMT
The current generation WRC cars are very; very quick ... I somehow doubt that we will ever get back to the heady days of the 1980 Group B cars... This most interesting post/thread made me wonder, which is faster, the Group B of the mid-80's or the present WRC-format. I came across one discussion forum with a discussion of last year, where one person claimed that, at the 1000-Lakes Rally of Finland, where many of the special stages have remained unchanged at least since the early 80's, the present cars are much faster. Yet I have not been able to come across actual stage-times. But comparing footage of 1986 (the heyday of Group B) with some from this summer, I think it's also the impression one gets - it's a good faster now than even with those "wild" cars of 32 years ago. So although the power output is lower, apparently the suspension, the tyres, and the overall balance of the cars, have become much better.
1000-Lakes Rally 1986 (the annoying music is only for the first 40-50 seconds)
A bit from 1985 (apparently the Audi's were not present in '86)
1000-Lakes Rally 2018
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Post by charleselan on Oct 12, 2018 16:11:54 GMT
The current generation WRC cars are very; very quick ... I somehow doubt that we will ever get back to the heady days of the 1980 Group B cars... This most interesting post/thread made me wonder, which is faster, the Group B of the mid-80's or the present WRC-format. I came across one discussion forum with a discussion of last year, where one person claimed that, at the 1000-Lakes Rally of Finland, where many of the special stages have remained unchanged at least since the early 80's, the present cars are much faster. Yet I have not been able to come across actual stage-times. But comparing footage of 1986 (the heyday of Group B) with some from this summer, I think it's also the impression one gets - it's a good faster now than even with those "wild" cars of 32 years ago. So although the power output is lower, apparently the suspension, the tyres, and the overall balance of the cars, have become much better.
1000-Lakes Rally 1986 (the annoying music is only for the first 40-50 seconds)
A bit from 1985 (apparently the Audi's were not present in '86)
1000-Lakes Rally 2018
Some great film clips there Mikael with old and new. Little doubt that todays cars are much quicker than the beasts that were Group B back in the mid 1980's. Todays cars might not have as much power but they are vastly more sophisticated, however to have seen those Group B cars in action is something I will never forget, they were absolutely epic machines. Some of us have been musing (I like this word at present) about the fragility and scary nature of the late 1960/early 70's sports prototypes, the group B cars carried the same fears but were equally incredible race machines. I was amazed quite recently when the UK WRC rally highlights program did a feature on current WRC cars safety, it is pretty impressive what they have to do to protect the driver these days. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 9:04:55 GMT
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T.S. Eliot
Mmm... within limits.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 9:06:33 GMT
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Post by René on Oct 14, 2018 9:22:00 GMT
I LOVE THAT FIAT! So cool!  |
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