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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 8:47:53 GMT
Can you hear the drums Fernando?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 9:02:12 GMT
I agree it is impossible to compare drivers from different eras. I do believe that the best and most talented will always rise to the top though. ... The talent is the same but everything else has become vastly more professional. So, do you think the general level (say, the "ground level") in F1 has become higher (if one looks apart from a number of "pay-drivers")? For certain eras gone by, it is sometimes said about the best few that they "stood head and shoulders above their contemporaries". Examples are Fangio and Moss (50's), Clark (60's), Stewart (early 70's), maybe Senna and Prost in the 80's/90's, and Schumacher in his prime. But for the more recent F1-generations that grew up on karting circuits, has there been anyone who, in terms of ability, really stood head and shoulders above the rest? I would compare them.
Late ‘70s:
Scheckter, Reutemann, Lauda, Peterson, Pace, Regazzoni, Hunt, Laffite, Stuck, Watson, Nilsson, Pryce, Jarier, Villeneuve, Patrese, Depailler, Mass, Jones, Brambilla, Tambay, Pironi, Ickx, Fittipaldi, Purley, Merzario.
Today:
Hamilton, Bottas, Vettel, Raikkonen, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Perez, Ocon, Grosjean, Magnussen, Vandoorne, Alonso, The (incredible) Hulk, Sainz, Ericsson, Leclerc, Gasly, Hartley, Sirotkin and, last but not least, that misunderstood ace of Stroll.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 9:09:39 GMT
Bloody hell, forgot Merio Endreddi.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 9:49:01 GMT
I agree it is impossible to compare drivers from different eras. I do believe that the best and most talented will always rise to the top though. ... The talent is the same but everything else has become vastly more professional. So, do you think the general level (say, the "ground level") in F1 has become higher (if one looks apart from a number of "pay-drivers")? For certain eras gone by, it is sometimes said about the best few that they "stood head and shoulders above their contemporaries". Examples are Fangio and Moss (50's), Clark (60's), Stewart (early 70's), maybe Senna and Prost in the 80's/90's, and Schumacher in his prime. But for the more recent F1-generations that grew up on karting circuits, has there been anyone who, in terms of ability, really stood head and shoulders above the rest? Beyond the facetious.
It is true that there are a lot of differences mostly due to the pervasiveness of information technology at all levels, which returns 100% reliable cars (look at the attrition rates in past eras), driving aids, race communications and so on. For most part it's a different sport altogether.
Referring to the "ground level" or the average, looking at the lists above, it is clear which side I am on, but I do accept that is subjective.
I would say Hamilton is becoming, in my mind at the least as most likely he was already, the stand out of the current crop and would have pushed some of those you mention above. Vettel perhaps one step below, always by and large speaking.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 16, 2018 11:25:03 GMT
All of the above points accepted there is one overriding difference between the two eras that Lucio has highlighted and that is, opportunity. We have had for too many years now in F1 two, possibly three, teams in with a chance of winning or even a podium position. Even in 1978 with the "dominant" Lotus 79 there were many other teams/drivers that could shine, reliability was a huge factor of course, but more often than not the unexpected would happen.
Hamilton & Vettel have won more championships than apples falling from a tree, all done with superior cars. I will begin to reconsider these guys in the overall picture, if and when, there win championships with more than a few other regulars to beat. I want to see guys like Hulkenburg; Ricciardo; Verstappen; Sainz; Magnussen; Ocon; Gasly; Leclerc etc all with a chance of competing at the sharp end, and not through a contrived spec series championship either.
When I see Hamilton, or Vettel et al, beat the other guys in a less than perfect car without the aid of "strategy' or pit stop windows then I maybe reconsider. I want to see them get out of the car having done that bathed in sweat as they have physically given their all to do that magnificent feat.
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 16, 2018 14:10:18 GMT
I do think Alonso beat others with inferior cars. I dont think the 2006 Renault was better than the 2006 Ferrari, neither was the Ferrari the best car in 2010 or 2012.
Mansell only dominated in a dominant Williams, he wasn't that a prolific a winner with a Ferrari that Prost won five races in.
Vettel has proved he can win in a car that is not quite the best, last year for example.
Piquet, though a brilliant driver, did not have the same rage to win or drive the wheels off his cars like Alonso had. In all three of his championships he only won three races per year, despite having the dominant car in two seasons and a very competitive car, focused on him, in the other two.
Hamilton has seldom been out of a competitive or dominant car, especially in the current Formula so it is hard to tell how motivated he would have been in an environment that Alonso has been in.
Alonso may be not as sophisticated as Piquet but I would rather have had him racing for me than Piquet or Mansell, if my life depended on it.
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Post by chrisb on Aug 16, 2018 20:35:20 GMT
Alonso, initially I quite liked him, at Minardi you saw he had something special, and that first stint at Renault I enjoyed, especially 'that' overtake at Japan, not only did he have skills he had balls, the other thing I liked about he and hamilton is that they have gotten to the top of their tree without a silver spoon or Daddy buying one a GP team,
when you look back at Alonso's climb from karts it has been one tough journey, but that first time at McLaren shook him, and I do feel Ron Dennis had the opportunity to make Alonso WDC that year and again in 08. But after 'that year' I do think Alonso lost something - maybe his ruthless ambition or experiece with Hamilton made him want to be the equivocal number one, i'm not sure but he did change for me and it is only in ghe past year or so has he started to become more human again
Lewis is good, and probably could have raced and be successful in the past 20 years, before that, i really don't think so, his driving attitude would have gotten him in all kinds of problems, could he have adapted, I'm not sure - he is a racer but how good isn't easy to define.
Mansell, I always thought he had two gears, one when he was in the dominant car and second one when you peed him off and that emotional tiger would surface and he would forget his misery and remember what he could do, when he was like that it didn't matter what he drove and he was the equal of anyone at that time, but then would revert.
when Vettel won his first GP at Monza in the Torro I remember saying, watch this boy he is special, I still believe he is.
Piquet - I never rated, I watched him in F3 and when he first drove on F1 and never thought much of him, certainly not someone I would have credited as a triple WDC and sums up to me what Stirling used to say about the WDC.
Like you John, I would love to see the Hulk and similar in the top car, there are many drivers who weren't quite midfield but were in the right place at the right time, Jenson for instance and proved once you had the opportunity you can deliver
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 20:54:14 GMT
In today's column, Turrini says that
You can safely take it that we might as well tell us jokes and still be right anyway.
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 17, 2018 7:06:58 GMT
We are all human Lucio and have our own views on the different drivers and where they rank overall. There is no definitive right answer. Fun though this conversation has been these kind of conversations are even more fun in a pub or social gathering. One day.
Thinking about things I came up with my list of drivers who I believe gave it their all almost every single time they raced and who very seldom dropped their heads, even if when things were not going their way.
Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Peterson Villeneuve G, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso. I am sure I have missed some but these are the ones I recall easily from reading about and watching F1.
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Post by René on Aug 17, 2018 10:36:12 GMT
I agree it is impossible to compare drivers from different eras. I do believe that the best and most talented will always rise to the top though. ... The talent is the same but everything else has become vastly more professional. So, do you think the general level (say, the "ground level") in F1 has become higher (if one looks apart from a number of "pay-drivers")? For certain eras gone by, it is sometimes said about the best few that they "stood head and shoulders above their contemporaries". Examples are Fangio and Moss (50's), Clark (60's), Stewart (early 70's), maybe Senna and Prost in the 80's/90's, and Schumacher in his prime. But for the more recent F1-generations that grew up on karting circuits, has there been anyone who, in terms of ability, really stood head and shoulders above the rest? Interesting question Mikael but difficult to answer. Maybe due to the increased professionalism, the difference has become smaller between the drivers. Extremely talented drivers from the past, say Clark, could drive away from the field because not many drivers performed on his level. A modern extremely talented driver, say Hamilton, is still obvioulsy better than most but even the 'worst' driver on the grid is still a highly trained athlete who works on his driving skill day in day out for years. Hamilton can still beat him based on pure talent alone but the difference is not that big anymore. Just some thoughts..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 11:28:20 GMT
Ai,Ai,Ai Alonso! Has become...... Bye, Bye, Bye Alonso! He's done a pretty good job of redeeming his reputation, as a driver, and person, with his four years of striving against all odds at McLaren. Hope he does go on the achieve his triple crown with sucess with an Indy 500 win. Could he take that triple crown a step further, and go as far as a WEC championship (should be easy this super season), and an Indycar championship?
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Post by charleselan on Aug 21, 2018 11:53:54 GMT
After seeing poor Rob Wickens terrible accident Teflonso might be having second thoughts about a full Indycar program.
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