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Post by mikael on Oct 21, 2024 18:20:39 GMT
With regards to the Lando / Max 'race' I am confused. if Lando hadn't gone wide they would have crashed- I thought Max's over aggression reeked of previous multiple champions who refused to stay within the acceptable boundaries of motor sport. Thinking they were above such laws of racing. Yet to penalise Lando just left me perplexed as to how is he supposed to race with someone like that?
I think that the core of the problem is again with the construction of the track (i.e., track limits yet again); that it is at all possible to run out and come back in again like that. On a proper Grand Prix circuit, that shouldn't be possible at all. Had there been gravel or grass, it would have been a completely different discussion (than the penalty discussion that was). This type of circuit is largely making a farce out of Grand Prix racing (not fully, of course, but to a certain extent).
F1 would do well in hiring Jarno Zaffelli (of recent Zandvoort fame) to rectify Hermann Tilke's misunderstandings.
How to construct a practice circuit, suitable for, e.g., racing schools, but not suitable for Grand Prix (where the purpose is to showcase the driving skills and the courage of the best drivers in the World):
How to construct a modern, proper Grand Prix circuit (Zandvoort):
Again Zandvoort - just perfect!
The blueprint of a proper Grand Prix circuit: Suzuka: |
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Post by René on Oct 21, 2024 18:35:03 GMT
Woohaah! Forza Ferrari!  Yes, Ferrari was brilliant and what a drive from both Charles and Carlos. Their most convincing win of the season with by far the fastest car. Still remarkable how the season keeps swinging up and down. And a shame actually that Verstappen had built up such a huge lead at the beginning of the season. Otherwise it would have been a real classic. The fight between Max and Lando was great. Max drove very strong defensively, but it's a shame that it always ends outside the track. Max's 'signature move' of braking so late that you are the first at the apex, but actually can't make the corner yourself is effective, but not stylish. I also think Lando could have tried to be a bit more creative in the attack. And correct Rob, Piastri was invisible. Great to see Lawson and Colapinto scoring points. Yuki and Alex should be worried. I agree on almost all points, but would change "have tried to be a bit more creative in the attack" to "have been more aggressive both defensively and in the attack". The stewards must have been asleep at the first turn and then overly excited near the end. Did Red Bull send a courtesy tray of energy drink to them? I'm less certain that Mickey Mouse had anything to do with track layout because most of the wheel to wheel challenges were between Turns 12 and 15, but I venture to say the same would be true with my recommened fast chicane and ninety degree left. The end of the longest straight would still have been the place to pass.
Yes, you’re right Carl. A ‘do or die’ approach would make more sense for Lando. His chance to win the title is slim anyway so just go for it, even if that means a crash. And that would certainly make more impression on Max compared to what he’s doing now. But of course, that’s easier said then done. Lando is a fair racer and Max doesn’t give a shit. |
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Post by Carl on Oct 22, 2024 18:25:15 GMT
With regards to the Lando / Max 'race' I am confused. if Lando hadn't gone wide they would have crashed- I thought Max's over aggression reeked of previous multiple champions who refused to stay within the acceptable boundaries of motor sport. Thinking they were above such laws of racing. Yet to penalise Lando just left me perplexed as to how is he supposed to race with someone like that?
I think that the core of the problem is again with the construction of the track (i.e., track limits yet again); that it is at all possible to run out and come back in again like that. On a proper Grand Prix circuit, that shouldn't be possible at all. Had there been gravel or grass, it would have been a completely different discussion (than the penalty discussion that was). This type of circuit is largely making a farce out of Grand Prix racing (not fully, of course, but to a certain extent).
F1 would do well in hiring Jarno Zaffelli (of recent Zandvoort fame) to rectify Hermann Tilke's misunderstandings.
How to construct a practice circuit, suitable for, e.g., racing schools, but not suitable for Grand Prix (where the purpose is to showcase the driving skills and the courage of the best drivers in the World):
How to construct a modern, proper Grand Prix circuit (Zandvoort):
Again Zandvoort - just perfect!
The blueprint of a proper Grand Prix circuit: Suzuka: Mikael, Well done! You described the problem and nailed the solution dead center. I wonder if (amateur racer) Hermann Tilke spins out so often that he's afraid of gravel.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by René on Oct 22, 2024 18:52:57 GMT
Yep, the huge paved runoffs are a mistake. Grass, gravel or at least a rumble strip that slows you down should be the standard on all circuits. But the problem here is called MotoGP because many tracks are used by both cars and bikes. And bikes don’t like gravel and grass.
However, it won’t change Max stretching the boundaries.
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Post by Carl on Oct 22, 2024 23:38:21 GMT
Yep, the huge paved runoffs are a mistake. Grass, gravel or at least a rumble strip that slows you down should be the standard on all circuits. But the problem here is called MotoGP because many tracks are used by both cars and bikes. And bikes don’t like gravel and grass. However, it won’t change Max stretching the boundaries. Yes, digging into gravel run-off causes bikes and riders to barrel roll dangerously and grass accelerates them. A lot depends on negotiations and decisions about safety measures. I believe with the use of inflatable barriers, Suzuka is able to host top-level motorcycle racing.
In this dramatic photograph, Tilke demonstrates the safety of paved run-off at 195 mph in copper-infused denim pants.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 23, 2024 9:35:19 GMT
Carl
I am beginning to get the distinct impression that you do not like Mr Tilke. I could be wrong though.
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Post by René on Oct 23, 2024 13:23:31 GMT
Carl I am beginning to get the distinct impression that you do not like Mr Tilke. I could be wrong though. Nah Rob, how can you possibly think that?  |
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Post by Carl on Oct 23, 2024 19:05:09 GMT
I can't dislike someone I've never met, but mediocrity can be dangerous. More than one passenger sitting next to Tilke on a long flight has been unresponsive upon landing, apparently from boredom.
Having bernie ecclestone as your champion is an assurance of poor judgment. If Tilke was greatly talented, the poison dwarf would have despised him.
"Not doing more than the average is what keeps the average down." - William Lyon Phelps
"Perseverance - a lowly virtue whereby mediocrity achieves an inglorious success." -Ambrose Bierce
"When small men attempt great enterprises, they always end by reducing them to the level of their mediocrity."
-Napoleon Bonaparte
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Post by mikael on Oct 24, 2024 20:15:20 GMT
Carl,
I must excuse my negativity; it was a great result on a very nice circuit (minus the runoff areas!) Yet this concept of time penalties, "for leaving the track and gaining an advantage", which we see again and again, is so shallow and so wrong (and so annoying!). It should - again - not be possible at all to gain an advantage by "leaving the track". To me, this is the most serious problem of modern GP racing.
It's not mysterious at all that drivers as well as teams like the large runoff areas. How convenient that you can actually make (what used to be) a serious error without any consequences whatsoever, except for a time penalty. Yet it's my understanding that many (and perhaps even most?) drivers also like Zandvoort and Suzuka very much. But probably not the teams - not that much, at least; almost any little (driver-) mistake costs a lot of (repair) time and a lot of money. Yet I do think that this is a "necessary evil"(*); otherwise what we get will just be a parody of Grand Prix racing.
Best,
M.
(*) Not that any driver should be hurt in any way, of course; but it seems that that's no longer an issue either, with the present safety standards of the cars.
P.S. Maybe I have just repeated myself, more or less But then, this is just to emphasize how much this bothers me; because, no matter what, we can't ignore this marvelous sport ... |
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Post by Carl on Oct 25, 2024 17:20:51 GMT
Carl,
I must excuse my negativity; it was a great result on a very nice circuit (minus the runoff areas!) Yet this concept of time penalties, "for leaving the track and gaining an advantage", which we see again and again, is so shallow and so wrong (and so annoying!). It should - again - not be possible at all to gain an advantage by "leaving the track". To me, this is the most serious problem of modern GP racing.
It's not mysterious at all that drivers as well as teams like the large runoff areas. How convenient that you can actually make (what used to be) a serious error without any consequences whatsoever, except for a time penalty. Yet it's my understanding that many (and perhaps even most?) drivers also like Zandvoort and Suzuka very much. But probably not the teams - not that much, at least; almost any little (driver-) mistake costs a lot of (repair) time and a lot of money. Yet I do think that this is a "necessary evil"(*); otherwise what we get will just be a parody of Grand Prix racing.
Best,
M.
(*) Not that any driver should be hurt in any way, of course; but it seems that that's no longer an issue either, with the present safety standards of the cars.
P.S. Maybe I have just repeated myself, more or less But then, this is just to emphasize how much this bothers me; because, no matter what, we can't ignore this marvelous sport ... Mikael, I am the one who must excuse himself. I totally agreed with your October 21st comment, but then detoured to humorous ridicule of Hermann Tilke, the proponent of endless pavement.
I completely agree with your central point about track limits: that they must be respected and not exceeded simply by drivers pretending the track extends to their wishes, followed by equally absurd time penalties, or even worse, allowed without consequence by the stewards.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by mikael on Oct 27, 2024 18:10:45 GMT
As is being discussed now, after the USGP, gravel strips - as used in Australia - may be a good solution to the track limit problem by the circuits accommodated with large, paved runoff areas. I think so too; a driver would certainly not want to place the two outer wheels in them when taking the corner; yet by a genuine mistake, he could pass right through them without much harm being done. And by MotoGP's, they could be covered relatively easily by screwed-down steel plates; that would not cost a fortune.
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