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Post by René on Nov 24, 2023 9:43:12 GMT
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Post by mikael on Nov 24, 2023 12:37:17 GMT
Every time I see a photo like the one just posted by René (and "repeated" below), I'm absolutely astonished by the sheer scale of these modern cars, and always come to think of the "giant" prewar machines (which actually might have been a good deal smaller than the present cars).
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Post by Carl on Nov 24, 2023 18:24:35 GMT
I believe modern F1 cars are larger than any in the past and wonder if the trend follows downforce and overall balance. In other words, does a larger underbody create more venturi effect downforce and is a longer wheelbase needed for balanced downforce front to rear? Despite the impressive domination by Red Bull, if Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss and Clark were all in their prime today, Max would be a reserve driver. The Flying Mantuan in 1939  |
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Post by mikael on Nov 24, 2023 18:51:44 GMT
I think you're absolutely right, Carl.
There's one point I don't understand, though. Since the "blueprint" to the present cars was determined - almost completely, I believe - by the FIA, why did they (FIA) choose the venturi-shaped bottom to generate downforce (sometimes referred to as "ground effect" (which is OK, by the way, as the proximity to the ground is utilized)) and not the large reversed-aerofoil-shaped sidepods, as done by Colin Chapman for the Lotus 78?
What's wrong with (or what's the problem with) Colin Chapman's "ground effect" principle? Had that been re-utilized, the cars could have stayed much more reasonably-sized - I'm quite certain about this. By the present principle, the cars (and in particular, their engine compartment) have to be very slim (as is evident in the figure below) - hence they become so terribly long. By Colin Chapman's principle, there's no need, really, for the cars to be slim - at least not "that" slim.
Cheers,
M.
The present principle:
... and that of Colin Chapman: |
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Post by René on Nov 24, 2023 20:03:15 GMT
if Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss and Clark were all in their prime today, Max would be a reserve driver. Quote of the year!  |
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Post by René on Nov 24, 2023 20:13:48 GMT
The length of modern hybrid cars has a lot to do with the Power Unit layout…  … but a longer car/floor definitely generates more downforce as Colin Chapman already discovered. The Lotus 80 was the result. And a narrow/slim monocoque was also back then the way to go.  |
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Post by René on Nov 24, 2023 20:21:30 GMT
Charles fastest today and a nasty crash for Carlos. And Max being his usual annoying self again.  |
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Post by mikael on Nov 25, 2023 9:20:42 GMT
Just about a memory that popped up, now that we (again) talked about the size of the cars. I remember watching the 2002 Japanese GP on (Japanese) television. It was the year that Takuma Sato had his debut, so it was a bit special.
A few years earlier, a multi-handicapped man, Hirotada Ototake, had made a name for himself by writing a book, called “No One's Perfect”, in a highly positive spirit, about his non-easy life. He was born without arms and legs, but he was blessed with a very good head. (He was – and is, I believe – very well-spoken, and always positive, with a big smile on his face.) He was invited by the TV Company (Fuji TV) as a special guest, and was present by the “grid walk”, where he talked with Takuma Sato. It was actually the very first time that Mr. Ototake had ever seen a Formula One car.
A curious little thing I remember was, that Mr. Ototake was so surprised about the compactness of the cars. “I had imaged that they would be much larger!”, he exclaimed.
Had he seen a Formula One car for the first time exactly twenty years later, in 2022, they might have been just like he had imagined … 😊
I think I remember this curious little episode because Mr. Ototake impressed me so greatly – as he had impressed many others in Japan.
Eventually, he (Hirotada Ototake) went on to become a sports journalist. Curious that he developed a love for sports – i.e. for something he had been completely excluded from participating in himself.
On another note, in 2002, Takuma Sato - aged 25 - was not young (by the standards of the time) when he made it to F1. (Of course he was a very later starter, beginning with karting only at age 19.) So it's very impressive indeed that he now, more than twenty years later, still is a professional racing driver.
Of course, it can be said that Sato did not quite live up to the expectations of him in Formula One. But that's what makes F1 so interesting: it really showcases the true level - and the limitations - of talent of a driver.
Takuma Sato in his F1-debut year, 2002
Hirotada Ototake (in 2016)
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Post by René on Nov 25, 2023 15:57:32 GMT
Just about a memory that popped up, now that we (again) talked about the size of the cars....
Thank you for sharing this story about Mr. Ototake. You can only be extremely impressed by so much strength and positivity if you have to face life with such a disadvantage. Very inspiring. As for his impression that the cars were so small, that was indeed the case. I can still remember that when I was able to view a Formula 1 car up close for the first time. Very compact and low. But that is indeed no longer the case. Of course they are still very low and wide, but nowadays they are just very long, really long, super looooooooong... |
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Post by René on Nov 25, 2023 16:09:29 GMT
Another front row with Max Verstappen and Charles Leclerc. Both were not entirely happy initially, and especially Ferrari looked slow when Carlos didn't make it into Q2, but in the end Charles did his magic again and almost snatched pole from Max. Another strong performance by Oscar Piastri in third (this kid is really very good) and George in fourth. Lando looked set for a super lap but he made a mistake, again, and ended at p5. Strong qualy for Yuki in 6th!  Battle Ferrari > Mercedes: Charles p2 > George p4 > Lewis p11 > Carlos p16 Could go either way.    |
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Post by mikael on Nov 26, 2023 15:56:13 GMT
In the final "Driver's Standings of 2023", the "old guard" (those drivers now in their mid-30s and above, say) did well: Pérez no. 2 (scoring almost exactly just half the points of no. 1, Verstappen), Hamilton no. 3, and Alonso no. 5.
So I don't know if one can read any general trends from just this last race of the season; but the results may indicate that a changing of the guards is imminent. Next season may be interesting in this respect ...
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Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2023 22:07:06 GMT
I was disappointed that Charles Leclerc, despite having the opportunity, did not force Verstappen wide in the first turn, which would have been a well-deserved taste of his own medicine.
After that demonstration of undeserved civility, the race was essentially an algorithmic contest for constructor points, although there were several good passes.
A persistent mystery is why VIP [very imperious people] apparently know nothing about where to watch a race, choosing to stand at the back of each driver's garage, behind even the mechanics, where they can see almost nothing. It can't be about privacy. As guests of each team, they could easily have one of the most expensive enclosed hospitality suites.
Does Arrow McLaren Indycar driver Patricio O'Ward's presence indicate a future in Formula One?
At which race next year will George Russell assault Toto Wolff?
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Post by René on Nov 26, 2023 22:26:51 GMT
I was disappointed that Charles Leclerc, despite having the opportunity, did not force Verstappen wide in the first turn, which would have been a well-deserved taste of his own medicine. After that demonstration of undeserved civility, the race was essentially an algorithmic contest for constructor points, although there were several good passes. A persistent mystery is why VIP [very imperious people] apparently know nothing about where to watch a race, choosing to stand at the back of each driver's garage, behind even the mechanics, where they can see almost nothing. It can't be about privacy. As guests of each team, they could easily have one of the most expensive enclosed hospitality suites. Does Arrow McLaren Indycar driver Patricio O'Ward's presence indicate a future in Formula One? At which race next year will George Russell assault Toto Wolff? Exactly my thought, Carl. I was shouting at the tv ‘push him off’ but that is simply not Charles… and that is also why I support him. Not all champions were pricks. As for Pato, he is McLaren’s official reserve driver so he needs at least some time behind the wheel of the real car. He drove in FP1. |
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Post by Carl on Nov 27, 2023 5:40:23 GMT
I was disappointed that Charles Leclerc, despite having the opportunity, did not force Verstappen wide in the first turn, which would have been a well-deserved taste of his own medicine. After that demonstration of undeserved civility, the race was essentially an algorithmic contest for constructor points, although there were several good passes. Exactly my thought, Carl. I was shouting at the tv ‘push him off’ but that is simply not Charles… and that is also why I support him. Not all champions were pricks. As for Pato, he is McLaren’s official reserve driver so he needs at least some time behind the wheel of the real car. He drove in FP1. The cars must comfortably contain more than a driver's anatomy. I'll never forget Monaco when Eddie Cheever's ego spilled out onto the Station hairpin, resulting in a red flag and irretrievable arrogance. |
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Post by mikael on Nov 27, 2023 16:46:28 GMT
I'll never forget Monaco when Eddie Cheever's ego spilled out onto the Station hairpin, resulting in a red flag and irretrievable arrogance.
Apropos of Monaco, and ... once again, the size of the cars (sorry ...), there have been discussions recently on the idea that, "Formula One may have outgrown Monaco", and thus that, "It may be time to ditch the Monaco GP". For example, at the (very good) website "The Race", the most recent podcast discusses (in its latter half) exactly this topic.
My initial reaction to this (as well as to earlier written discussions on this topic) was, "You gotta be kidding me ...!"
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