|
|
Post by charleselan on Dec 5, 2017 23:13:04 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by René on Dec 6, 2017 0:40:11 GMT
Yes, I was also at Zolder the day Gilles had the accident.
I was on the pit building right above the Ferrari team and witnessed the shock and the drama very closeby. I remember the expression on the face of Didier's wife (they were just married) when it was announced a serious accident happened with a Ferrari. First total shock when it was not clear yet which Ferrari crashed and then this moment of relieve when she knew it wasn't Didier followed by immediate worry. I remember the stress of the mechanics and Forghieri and Piccinini. Joanne was not present that day because of the holy communion of Mélanie.
I remember when Didier came slowly back in the pit and stopped the 126C2 right below me. Only then it became clear he had Gilles's helmet on his lap. He got out slowly after placing the helmet carefully on the sidepod. He placed his hand on it, nodded "no" and then walked away.
-
Two weeks earlier I watched the San Marino Grand Prix (at my auntie's house because our tv was broken. Silly why I remember that). It was a strange Grand Prix with several teams not starting but nothing was going to spoil the fun! The Renaults were fast but not reliable so a good chance for a Ferrari victory. And so it went. I was very happy when they finished 1-2, albeit a bit surprised Didier won. The tifosi were going mad and all was fine. I didn't see the complete podium ceremony, I think the broadcasting stopped. I was not really aware there was a big issue. Only the next day when I read the race report in the newspaper it became clear to me there were serious tensions within the team and Gilles was very unhappy.
Gilles's reasoning was understandable as he had always played very fair when it came to agreements and team orders and now he felt betrayed. But I could also understand Didier. It was too early in the season to decide on who was number one and number two in the team. And he was racing a Ferrari in the heart of Italy with a shot at winning. What would you do?
Gilles was my childhood hero so I found it difficult. I was convinced back then that things would settle down and eventually be ok. It couldn't be that bad, could it?
When Gilles had the accident I honestly never ever had the idea that this happened because of the San Marino events. It was only when I read it in the press but it never convinced me.
-
Later that year I cheered for Didier at Zandvoort where he raced to a well deserved victory and apparently on his way to the championship. I liked Didier Pironi and was very sad when it all went wrong for him in Germany.
|
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Dec 6, 2017 3:20:49 GMT
Rene and John Charles,
As a reflection of the magnitude of his loss, it's telling that for all intents and importance, when Gilles' life ended, the race was also over.
Kind regards, Carl
|
|
|
|
Post by René on Dec 6, 2017 17:09:34 GMT
Carl, Gilles's death was a terrible loss for the sport and nothing was ever the same again for me after that day. It made a profound impression on me.
Still, it was also a part of the sport still very much present at the time. F1 was seriously dangerous. I cried that evening when Gilles was officially announced dead but I did go to the race the next day. No Ferrari's to cheer for but it was still an F1 race I wanted to see. I remember some people didn't understand that.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Dec 6, 2017 19:56:15 GMT
35 years on the tragedy hasn't lessened, nor the pain,
|
|
|
|
Post by Jamie on Dec 10, 2017 8:42:25 GMT
Yes, I was also at Zolder the day Gilles had the accident. I was on the pit building right above the Ferrari team and witnessed the shock and the drama very closeby. I remember the expression on the face of Didier's wife (they were just married) when it was announced a serious accident happened with a Ferrari. First total shock when it was not clear yet which Ferrari crashed and then this moment of relieve when she knew it wasn't Didier followed by immediate worry. I remember the stress of the mechanics and Forghieri and Piccinini. Joanne was not present that day because of the holy communion of Mélanie. I remember when Didier came slowly back in the pit and stopped the 126C2 right below me. Only then it became clear he had Gilles's helmet on his lap. He got out slowly after placing the helmet carefully on the sidepod. He placed his hand on it, nodded "no" and then walked away. - Two weeks earlier I watched the San Marino Grand Prix (at my auntie's house because our tv was broken. Silly why I remember that). It was a strange Grand Prix with several teams not starting but nothing was going to spoil the fun! The Renaults were fast but not reliable so a good chance for a Ferrari victory. And so it went. I was very happy when they finished 1-2, albeit a bit surprised Didier won. The tifosi were going mad and all was fine. I didn't see the complete podium ceremony, I think the broadcasting stopped. I was not really aware there was a big issue. Only the next day when I read the race report in the newspaper it became clear to me there were serious tensions within the team and Gilles was very unhappy. Gilles's reasoning was understandable as he had always played very fair when it came to agreements and team orders and now he felt betrayed. But I could also understand Didier. It was too early in the season to decide on who was number one and number two in the team. And he was racing a Ferrari in the heart of Italy with a shot at winning. What would you do? Gilles was my childhood hero so I found it difficult. I was convinced back then that things would settle down and eventually be ok. It couldn't be that bad, could it? When Gilles had the accident I honestly never ever had the idea that this happened because of the San Marino events. It was only when I read it in the press but it never convinced me. - Later that year I cheered for Didier at Zandvoort where he raced to a well deserved victory and apparently on his way to the championship. I liked Didier Pironi and was very sad when it all went wrong for him in Germany. Brilliant post Rene....it must have been very upsetting to witness it first hand. Your observation of Pironi coming back to the pits is very interesting.....I do think what he did at Imola was wrong and quite disrespectful but the blood runs hot when at the wheel of a racing car so I don't hold it against him, I'm sure they'd have settled it between them eventually and the actions you saw that day confirm he was a caring man. Indeed, I think Gilles death affected him immensely, I think he named his son Gilles as well...... He met his own tragic end of course......shame, a very complex and talented man. |
|
|
|
Post by robmarsh on Dec 10, 2017 10:27:36 GMT
Excellent post Rene. I never knew about the helmet before. I too was angry at Pironi for a breach in team orders but after Gilles death supported him as Ferrari's driver. I had supported him before because he was pretty good. He did to Gilles what most drivers do today as a matter of course to their teammates. Maybe that was the pivotal point in the change from gentlemen to ultimate professional. I read a lot of Nigel Roebuck in those days to whom Gilles walked on water so Pironi was classed as the ultimate villain. If I remember correctly DSJ didn't really take a view at all. In any case it was up to Gilles how fast he was going on that run and whether he should have backed off or not-he didn't just like Senna didn't at Imola in 1994. So for a long time Pironi was a villain. His wife had twins and they were called Gilles and Didier. To me Alain Prost was a villain in 1989 at Suzuka as was Senna a year later. Mansell was a villain in Portugal in 1989 when he refused to respond to the black flag and ended up taking Senna out. Schumacher was a villain in 1994 at Adelaide and then again in Jerez in 1997. Flavio Briatore was always a villain. I could go on.
|
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Dec 10, 2017 10:52:50 GMT
I don't really wish to get into debating something like the matters at Imola 1992 to any great extent, as people will have their own views. However as I mentioned earlier not one English speaking journalist ever asked Didier Pironi about those events that day. As Rob so correctly points out Roebuck was hugely responsible for casting him as the villain, and his bias was self evident, as it is to this day with other drivers.
Most of you would probably not know of this, but a French reporter did speak with Pironi after the event and his reasoning for doing what he did is very different to what is published by the English speaking press. In short, Didier said that he knew fuel was marginal in the race made even more apparent by the intense duel between the Ferrari's and Renault's. He kept quite a lot in reserve during that race while Gilles duelled frantically with the Renault's. Towards the end with the Renault out of the way they ran together, on that last lap Gilles slowed quite dramatically and Pironi thought he was running out of fuel and passed his team mate.
This may or may not be true, who can say, but it has no less credence than the supposition published by others. In a similar vein there was a feature in Motorsport Magazine a few years ago on Piero Ferrari, in it he was adamant that there were no team orders that day. It was something that was probably discussed by the two drivers themselves prior to the race, and therefore I cannot believe that someone who had displayed such integrity and decency as Didier Pirori had previously, would do such a malevolent act.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Dec 10, 2017 12:20:37 GMT
really fair points chaps, professionally I have always learnt there are always different perspectives and viewpoints to anything and you do have to listen to them first before any conclusion, and as you say JC we didn't hear Didier's response, all I know is qualifying tyres to me were the real villains, Nigel, whose writing seems to be improving again, was Gilles's friend and as Jenks was always condemning of Jackie Stewart so Nigel seemed to be of Didier, I didn't hear to many other drivers condemn him, but who knows? as someone straight talking did Niki Lauda ever say anything about this incident?
Rob, absolutely agree re Briatore - seemed to have made a great deal of money out of something 'he knew very little about'
was Balestre a villain?
|
|
|
|
Post by robmarsh on Dec 10, 2017 14:38:33 GMT
Nice post Charles- I have learnt a lot from these posts and the ones supporting Pironi actually make a lot of sense and definitely resonate with me and have changed my view on what will always be a sad year. In fact this is the first time I have heard anybody come out in support of him which is really good. I always wondered though about how much of Gilles anger was directed at himself for being caught out as well. If you read Gerald Donaldson's book on GV he wasn't exactly the saint everybody thinks he was. He had flaws just like us all. I was upset when Pironi crashed so badly at Hockenheimring that day. He was an excellent driver.
|
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Dec 10, 2017 16:06:47 GMT
Nice post Charles- I have learnt a lot from these posts and the ones supporting Pironi actually make a lot of sense and definitely resonate with me and have changed my view on what will always be a sad year. In fact this is the first time I have heard anybody come out in support of him which is really good. I always wondered though about how much of Gilles anger was directed at himself for being caught out as well. If you read Gerald Donaldson's book on GV he wasn't exactly the saint everybody thinks he was. He had flaws just like us all. I was upset when Pironi crashed so badly at Hockenheimring that day. He was an excellent driver. Many thanks for the kind words Rob, I very much appreciate them. I try always to be balanced in my view of things, not always successful, but I try. With regard to the Gilles & Didier situation I have no axe to grind either way to be honest as i liked them both, and in all probability Gilles more so. Didier has been made out to be the bad guy from day one, and as i have mentioned before, there is no substance to the supposition that he "played dirty" and i feel that someone should make that point clear. The vilification that I have read on the MS site in the past was a disgrace. Incidentally I had a discussion with Ray about this some time back and he later informed me that I had changed his mind about the whole thing. Knowing Ray he probably read up about some of the information I gave him about Pironi's character and formulated a new opinion based upon that, which was heartening. Your assessment about Gilles being mad at himself is pretty much spot on in my opinion, sadly that festered with an awful outcome. One can only imagine what Didier was feeling that black day at Zolder, and afterwards. I like René, was there that weekend, but as I was out on the circuit photographing I had no idea what had gone on, only that proceedings had been halted because of an incident. Those in my party only found out the grim news as we travelled into the circuit the following morning, the rest of the race day was a bit surreal. It was sunny rather than the drab overcast and miserable day of the Saturday, and Keke ran away with things in the new Williams FW08 until it broke. Incidentally Chris, I don't think Niki has ever commented about it, he was on very good terms with Didier, even to the extent that at Hockenheim Pironi signalled to him in practice to follow him and get a much needed tow. |
|
|
|
Post by robmarsh on Dec 11, 2017 9:47:03 GMT
Actually Charles after our discussions on this forum I purchased a kindle book on Didier Pironi which may give me some more insight-I will let you know. My comment "Maybe that was the pivotal point in the change from gentlemen to ultimate professional." was based on the fair sportsmanship that GV displayed and in line with his reputation. It was also based on my knowledge of Pironi, mostly gleaned from Roebuck but before your insights. I do remember DSJ, when reporting on Pironi driving for Ligier and when he was dominating some races, described him as "the cold and ruthless Pironi". That I think may have been to the lack of emotion he displayed when his car broke down. I don't think it had to do with his character because I always had the impression that sort of intrigue didn't interest DSJ. I was also thinking of today's standard when it is oft stated that your first and greatest rival is your team mate. When did that sort of nonsense creep into F1. I don't ever remember reading about it back in the 60s and 70s. I am sure that sentiment didn't apply then but maybe wrong. I think it was a mid 80s phenomena.
|
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Dec 11, 2017 11:38:12 GMT
Actually Charles after our discussions on this forum I purchased a kindle book on Didier Pironi which may give me some more insight-I will let you know. My comment "Maybe that was the pivotal point in the change from gentlemen to ultimate professional." was based on the fair sportsmanship that GV displayed and in line with his reputation. It was also based on my knowledge of Pironi, mostly gleaned from Roebuck but before your insights. I do remember DSJ, when reporting on Pironi driving for Ligier and when he was dominating some races, described him as "the cold and ruthless Pironi". That I think may have been to the lack of emotion he displayed when his car broke down. I don't think it had to do with his character because I always had the impression that sort of intrigue didn't interest DSJ. I was also thinking of today's standard when it is oft stated that your first and greatest rival is your team mate. When did that sort of nonsense creep into F1. I don't ever remember reading about it back in the 60s and 70s. I am sure that sentiment didn't apply then but maybe wrong. I think it was a mid 80s phenomena. Rob, Another great post, and I hope that the Kindle book on Pironi comes up to scratch and gives some real insight into his character. I do recall that back in the day when he was driving for Ligier there was a great deal of nationalistic rubbish written in the English press supporting the Williams team. Williams also fostered this with this thing about beating the darn French. I think that Didier and Ligier were a good fit in 1980 and its as a shame that he was seduced into going to Ferrari. He was very quick in the Ligier and was truly awesome at Brands in qualifying and I am certain he would have dominated the race but for the front wheel failures. To be truthful and open I have never been a fan of Roebuck's writing; finding him to be shallow with regard to technical understanding and far too anecdotal. He is also hugely biased in his reportage which for a writer is not good as one should always get the full facts from all sides before putting your script to print. I also accept that DSJ was also biased but to different degree. Your view on team mate rivalry is most interesting and i hope others will add to this topic. In the past many team mates have been master and apprentice which usually lead to an excellent team spirit. Also many of the drivers pre mid 1980's were good friends; team mates and from opposing teams. They still wanted to beat one another but not with the almost child like desire we see today. JC PS. An added bit. I think that by the very fact Pironi named his son after Gilles says much of the man, and the high regard and respect he had for Villeneuve. You don't name your son after someone because you have feelings of guilt, and for very obvious reasons. |
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Dec 12, 2017 19:27:37 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by René on Dec 12, 2017 20:52:19 GMT
JC, thanks for posting that picture although I feel really sad looking at it. Here Didier walks back to his own car with both his own and Gilles's helmet.
Years ago I had an interesting conversation online with a Belgian enthusiast who was also there in 1982. He was, just like me on the paddock roof and witnessed the same moment when Didier came in with Gilles's helmet. Strangely enough this seems not to be recorded on film, at least not to our knowledge back then. I wish I had photographed it myself but I made 24 photos that morning so no more pictures left. It is photographed in my memory though.
|
|
