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Post by robmarsh on Nov 30, 2020 14:10:52 GMT
Hi Charles, almost exactly my views as well. I also thought that the crash barrier looked like a very second rate installation. In fact I was surprised it was allowed to have gaps in it at all. It was the same type of run-off area that caused the result of the F2 race to be fatal for Anthoine Hubert in Spa last year. Romain's crash was very similar to Francois Cevert, in fact scaringly so. Helmuth Koinigg is another. We almost had a Tom Pryce tragedy as well with a marshall running across the track in front of Lando Norris. That is the third incident with marshalls in the last five races or so that could have had fatal consequences. Not good at all.
I know that these are the fastest F1 cars ever, they are also the largest and heaviest and that is a lot of energy that needs to be dissipated very quickly. I know that F1 is patting itself on the back for everything working as it should and for saving a life but I think it was more luck than science that saved RG. The cars are just to big and fast nowadays.
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Post by René on Nov 30, 2020 17:26:09 GMT
We've seen the drivers getting more and more encapsulated by the year and then the halo to top it off. Safetywise there is no argument, certainly not after what we've seen with Romain's accident but also other crashes where the halo proved its worth. The only downside is the looks of the damn thing. Wouldn't it be something if they could make the cockpit and halo of a transparent material that of course has the same strenght? Probably wishful thinking but then we could see more of the drivers at work again. That was pretty cool in the 'old days' when the driver was more exposed. Anyway, still impressive what we saw yesterday and I was very impressed not only by the strenght of the halo but also the strength of the connection points, how it is mounted on the chassis. Amazing engineering.
I agree however it was disturbing to see the guardrails getting ripped open and I had the same thought about Cevert...
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Post by chrisb on Dec 1, 2020 10:05:59 GMT
if one had the choice between the Indycar style of protection and the halo I am not sure which one I would choose,
someone senior is going on about the barriers reacting as they were intended, really? not sure about that one, I haven't read the full story in truth but that seems a bit far fetched to my simplistic mind, the whole aspect of barriers is a very emotive one, not only as you chaps have previously mentioned but the likes of Gerry Birrell and of course Jochen dominate my thoughts, another point was that had their been barriers at Hockenheim in 1968 Jimmy may have had a chance, and I would tend to agree Rob, it was more luck than judgement, although there are nice tributes to Jackie and Sid the self-accolading is nauseous and it is not enough, why did the car split in two, that is scary.
I think John is spot on with the tracks, in a way these massive runoffs are rewarding mistakes, which leads to sloppy driving, something that has also turned me away from my beloved sport, with regards to the car splitting into two and their fuel systems exploding that was the other scary part to me,
tribute to those whose bravery was so evident
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Post by charleselan on Dec 1, 2020 11:02:29 GMT
Last evening I read the article in Motorsport that reported on the words of the circuit designer (not Tilke) about the barrier doing exactly as it should have done, Chris. I will be careful here as it is a report and not necessarily the exact words from the man himself. In it he is reported to have said that the barrier did what it was intended to do, in that it deformed to help absorb the impact and the scansions supporting the rails were also designed to "give" upon impact.
I believe it was also reported that he mentioned that the rails would separate if "something" were to penetrate them. Well that is pretty obvious to even an untrained eye.
What is not mentioned is the fact that guard rails are designed to be sighted where there will be a glancing blow, because that is where they are most effective. In Romain's accident he more or less hit the blessed things head on and at terrific velocity due to the angle he left the track and the sighting of this particular barrier.
Now they can wrap this up in whatever politically expedient words they like, the fact remains that racing cars have habit of doing surprising things. To my way of thinking two things are wrong here; firstly a full risk assessment was not done as to what scenario might unfold, and secondly the sighting and type of barrier used was inappropriate. It would appear that the guy mentioned that maybe next time a different barrier would be used, so he knows the wrong one was used doesn't he.
This smacks of yet another incident like Michael Masi (Charlie Whitings replacement) saying the complaints about the mobile crane on track in Turkey were not valid, only to then say later that maybe in hindsight it should not have happened.
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Post by robmarsh on Dec 1, 2020 13:38:55 GMT
Yep I reserve my judgement for Michael Masi at present. Things seem to have got a bit slack under his watch.
On another note Lewis Hamilton has tested positive for covid 19 so will not be racing this weekend and possibly next as well. Not sure who I would like to see as his replacement, George Russell or Nico Hulkenberg.
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Post by Carl on Dec 1, 2020 18:20:26 GMT
The crash and escape were shown on NBC's nightly news because of the incredible bravery of the rescuers and miraculous escape of Romain Grosjean.
Looking back at similar crashes in the past, all fatal, I immediately thought of Peter Revson's death while testing ahead of the 1974 South African Grand Prix. Suspension failure sent his Shadow DN3 into the Armco barrier at very high speed and it was stopped and bent severely backward by the impact. Mechanical failure leading to death is the greatest tragedy and Revson was dead when rescue personnel arrived. |
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Post by mikael on Dec 1, 2020 20:23:50 GMT
The crash and escape were shown on NBC's nightly news because of the incredible bravery of the rescuers and miraculous escape of Romain Grosjean.
Same here in Northern Europe; it was, for example, analyzed in great detail on DR's "Aftenshowet" ("The Evening Show" of Denmark's National Broadcast Corp.), where they had invited Jason Watt to comment on it. But, "All's Well That Ends Well" - so I thought it was just fine. A (slightly early) Christmas Miracle.
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Post by mikael on Dec 1, 2020 20:26:34 GMT
On another note Lewis Hamilton has tested positive for covid 19 so will not be racing this weekend and possibly next as well.
This kind of sums up this crazy, .... terrible year ... How I look forward to the day when we're on the other side of this ...
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Post by robmarsh on Dec 2, 2020 0:07:07 GMT
On another note Lewis Hamilton has tested positive for covid 19 so will not be racing this weekend and possibly next as well.
This kind of sums up this crazy, .... terrible year ... How I look forward to the day when we're on the other side of this ...
You and me both Mikael. |
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Post by chrisb on Dec 2, 2020 9:02:33 GMT
and me three Rob and Mikael,
I understand George has gotten the MB drive, wonder if that means he will be considered for next year, not sure I know George's replacement in the Williams,
John, excellent point sir, and having been involved in risk assessing I know how challenging it is but you do discuss 'what if's not normal circumstances incidents' which this surely was
Carl, the Peter accident was dreadful and I read Tony Southgate's account as to how the accident occured but again would later technology saved poor Peter, what I hadn't realised was that Peter had a younger brother who was also killed in a motor racing accident.
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Post by robmarsh on Dec 2, 2020 10:14:52 GMT
I see that Jack Aiken will drive at Williams. No disrespect to LH but this GP already has me more interested than all the other GPs since the second race in Austria. Hope both George and Jack make full use of their opportunities.
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Post by charleselan on Dec 2, 2020 13:03:02 GMT
Just being provocative now, but what if  ............ George goes quicker than Bottas off the bat, and how would that translate into assumptions about other drivers! Also would Tonto allow such a thing to happen ! Could prove embarrassing if it were to be the case. Tonto apparently has stated that it is a big jump for George; I ask the question why? Many in the past with two years F1 experience behind them and real talent have been instantly fast, so why not George Russell. I also see that we have a third generation Fittipaldi taking part, has there ever been a third generation driver in F1 before? |
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Post by René on Dec 2, 2020 13:38:47 GMT
Just being provocative now, but what if ............ George goes quicker than Bottas off the bat, and how would that translate into assumptions about other drivers! Also would Tonto allow such a thing to happen ! Could prove embarrassing if it were to be the case. Tonto apparently has stated that it is a big jump for George; I ask the question why? Many in the past with two years F1 experience behind them and real talent have been instantly fast, so why not George Russell. I also see that we have a third generation Fittipaldi taking part, has there ever been a third generation driver in F1 before? Yes that would be something. George has done many hours in the Merc sim so who knows. But Bottas is still very fast. Getting close to his times would be very good.
A third generation? Must be the first. And another second generation with Mick Schumacher at HAAS next year. I wonder if he will use the MSC abbreviation like his dad...
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............