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Post by charleselan on Oct 2, 2020 12:41:57 GMT
Announced today that Honda will be withdrawing from F1 at the end of 2021. All the details can be read elsewhere but the main thing cited by the manufacture is the changing world and what is required in the green environment.
Well that will leave just MB; Ferrari and Renault to supply power units, although I have read that Cosworth are looking at a return especially if the power unit rules are made simpler.
Honda have never really stuck around, dip their toe in and then retreat but it looks as if they will be going towards Formula E. Must be a real shocker for the Fizzy Drink empire as they appear to have had no indication this was Honda's intention.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 2, 2020 13:27:04 GMT
Apparently Honda told them at the end of August what they were doing. What goes around comes around and I guess Horner and Max are probably wishing they had been nicer to Renault a while back. Maybe Honda reckoned it was just not worth the expense to try and beat Mercedes. Is Honda the first domino?
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Post by chrisb on Oct 2, 2020 14:13:01 GMT
Given that Renault are allegedly in financial woe and what with the world in turmoil and new car sales cannot be at a good place one wonders just how much longer can Regie justify its involvement, and given the suggested issues between the new boss at MB and Tonto and MB's aims in Formula E are they also contemplating their future, Ferrari have probably been the team who can justify their involvement to their shareholders and ignore Fiat
F1 without automotive teams? we've survived it before and I would welcome surviving it again with a lot less complications, but for those who enjoy the complexity of the engineering side this could be a disaster
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Post by René on Oct 2, 2020 15:09:37 GMT
...if the power unit rules are made simpler.
Exactly. The automotive industry is changing rapidly and to adapt and survive for companies like Honda, huge investments like Formula One are not sustainable in the long term.
The technology used in F1 is too complex and too expensive. Stefano has a huge challenge ahead of him!
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Post by charleselan on Oct 2, 2020 17:55:48 GMT
Time for a major rethink I feel. Stefano does indeed have a big task on his hands, but there is none better equipped. I did see that Tonto claims he was in line for the position but Ferrari vetoed it, can't think why   . Maybe some big changes coming in F1 over the coming few years, along hopefully with a sense of reality. |
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Post by mikael on Oct 2, 2020 19:10:28 GMT
A shame now that they started to come good; but history repeats itself ...
From a sporting point of view, it wouldn't be a great loss if (i) all manufacturers started to pull out, one by one, (ii) the category (F1) more or less folded but were restructured and resurrected in a much simpler form, (iii) engines (traditional high-performance combustion engines, not hybrid power plants) became supplied by a few specialist companies (like Cosworth), and (iv) "garagists" (small specialist enterprises) went on to dominate the sport once again. |
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Post by Carl on Oct 2, 2020 19:16:40 GMT
A shame now that they started to come good; but history repeats itself ...
From a sporting point of view, it wouldn't be a great loss if (i) all manufacturers started to pull out, one by one, (ii) the category (F1) more or less folded but were restructured and resurrected in a much simpler form, (iii) engines (traditional high-performance combustion engines, not hybrid power plants) became supplied by a few specialist companies (like Cosworth), and (iv) "garagists" (small specialist enterprises) went on to dominate the sport once again. Well said and a good plan for a better Formula One. |
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Post by chrisb on Oct 3, 2020 9:37:17 GMT
hear hear Mikael, if they set a sort of MPG and emissions target as the over-riding ambition we could have some real innovation that would really benefit everyone
although Autosport is saying Renault will supply the fizzy drinks lot,
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Post by René on Oct 3, 2020 11:21:41 GMT
A shame now that they started to come good; but history repeats itself ...
From a sporting point of view, it wouldn't be a great loss if (i) all manufacturers started to pull out, one by one, (ii) the category (F1) more or less folded but were restructured and resurrected in a much simpler form, (iii) engines (traditional high-performance combustion engines, not hybrid power plants) became supplied by a few specialist companies (like Cosworth), and (iv) "garagists" (small specialist enterprises) went on to dominate the sport once again. Good post Mikael. The whole formula needs to be more simple and accessible for specialist enterprises as you call it. I am not sure about the combustion engines though. I am afraid that is a dead end. Even Indycar will switch to hybrids in 2022. New green technology is a given for the automotive industry and therefore also for racing. But electrical cars are not exciting for racing as we can see in FE so it will be a challenge for the nearby future to come up with an alternative that's fast and racy and also affordable.... and green... hmmmm.  |
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Post by charleselan on Oct 3, 2020 11:47:37 GMT
My heart and passion would go along with your analysis for the future Mikael, but I am torn as I cannot see the i/c engine being readopted. Electric powered cars for racing hold absolutely no interest for me, I haven't even looked at one minute of Formula E this year.
Maybe F1 should champion hydrogen powered cars.
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Post by mikael on Oct 6, 2020 18:24:03 GMT
Time has already run away from the hybrid engine, it seems. And somehow, I don't think that hydrogen and bio-fuels have a real future. Everything points towards the electric motor car. (And the hybrid "power plant" has just been a stepping stone between the combustion engine and the electric motor (and, not to forget, the efficient battery).) So apparently, Formula E will soon be the only "road relevant" racing category. So why not let Formula One become a complete non-sensible "dream spectacle" - noisy and technologically outdated, but simply amazing and awe-inspiring to watch - the kind of machine that the real fans yearn for seeing again. Certainly no major manufacturer would be interested - but so much the better.
Mazda RX-8 Hydrogen (2007)
!!! .... 
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Post by chrisb on Oct 7, 2020 8:13:44 GMT
totally agree Mikael, except for a period in the 80's when we had a fantastic Group C era with so many great manufacturers - and that is one area I wish they would return to as that makes sense to me, I do wish with the exception of the following the manufactures would leave F1 and their hybrids leaving F1 with Ferrari, Alfa [and someone like a BRM?possible Regie as I do like them] and the garigistas with a gorgeous sounding lump with huge bhp and limited aero and no gimmicks and proper tyres - now where have I heard that before?
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 7, 2020 8:25:06 GMT
I have always being a bit cynical of the saying Formula 1 improves the breed. Knowing how F1 team owners and principles behave towards obtaining money, the rules etc I think it was something they dreamed up to attract finance. A bit like the De Beers marketing claim making out diamonds to be valuable whereas in fact, apart from cutting tools they are just vanity baubles anyway.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 7, 2020 12:16:00 GMT
In a way I was clutching at straws with the hydrogen idea, shame that it is being discarded now as I liked the concept.
On the subject of electric vehicles there are a number of aspects that give me a bee in the bonnet about this. Firstly I have yet to see either in written form or film any car tester or reviewer give a real break down of the costs involved in fully charging an electric car with a fully depleted battery. We see all of them going to a recharging point but never have I seen any say how much it cost. The only thing remotely close was in last weekends Top Gear program in the UK where it was briefly mentioned that charging up the fully electric car being used was "cheaper" than the fossil fuelled cars alongside, but no costings.
Also over the past week I have read articles that state something like a Nissan Leaf looses 30 - 40% of its charging capacity after three years. That is outrageous if it is the case as that means a car that could, say, do 200 miles on a full charge when new would only be able to complete 130 or less miles after three years. The same feature also said that a replacement battery would cost in excess of £3000, who in their right mind is going to pay that for a three four year old vehicle.
Further to this it appears that the battery efficiency in very cold conditions is greatly reduced, even to the extent that sometimes the battery will not take a charge in serious minus C conditions. I gained this information from the excellent new series "Long Way Up" with Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman in which they are using electric powered Harley Davidson motorcycles. Two of the support vehicles are electric powered 4X4 Pick Up's manufactured by Rivian and are to all internet prototypes.
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Post by René on Oct 7, 2020 15:05:16 GMT
In a way I was clutching at straws with the hydrogen idea, shame that it is being discarded now as I liked the concept. On the subject of electric vehicles there are a number of aspects that give me a bee in the bonnet about this. Firstly I have yet to see either in written form or film any car tester or reviewer give a real break down of the costs involved in fully charging an electric car with a fully depleted battery. We see all of them going to a recharging point but never have I seen any say how much it cost. The only thing remotely close was in last weekends Top Gear program in the UK where it was briefly mentioned that charging up the fully electric car being used was "cheaper" than the fossil fuelled cars alongside, but no costings. Also over the past week I have read articles that state something like a Nissan Leaf looses 30 - 40% of its charging capacity after three years. That is outrageous if it is the case as that means a car that could, say, do 200 miles on a full charge when new would only be able to complete 130 or less miles after three years. The same feature also said that a replacement battery would cost in excess of £3000, who in their right mind is going to pay that for a three four year old vehicle. Further to this it appears that the battery efficiency in very cold conditions is greatly reduced, even to the extent that sometimes the battery will not take a charge in serious minus C conditions. I gained this information from the excellent new series "Long Way Up" with Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman in which they are using electric powered Harley Davidson motorcycles. Two of the support vehicles are electric powered 4X4 Pick Up's manufactured by Rivian and are to all internet prototypes. I agree on the hydrogen, that could have been an interesting concept and direction. As for the electric cars, I actually did a test drive last week in the all new Lexus UX300e. Not a ground breaking car regarding range and charging compared to say a Tesla, but in terms of build quality and finish and luxury feel the Lexus crushes any Tesla. The driving experience was excellent, an amazingly smooth drive and it's so quiet and responsive you have to watch your speed all the time at first. The torque of an electric powered vehicle really is amazing and also the direct feel when accellerating. So in all honesty, this was a very positive experience for me. I am surprised about the numbers you mention on battery capacity loss on a Nissan Leaf. That should not be the case. I know Lexus gives a 10 year warranty (or one million kilometres) on their batteries. And tests show a Tesla Model S still has 90% battery capacity after 250.000kms! As for charging costs compared to regular fuel, it really is a lot cheaper. It depends on where you charge, charging at home is for instance a lot cheaper then using a fast charger on the highway. But on average, the costs are 5,4 eurocents electricity per driven kilometre compared to 10 eurocents fuel per km. These figures are from the Dutch ANWB (similar to German ADAC) and seen as very reliable. They are of course based on the Dutch market.
So all in all, an electric car really is more price efficient and greener than a 'normal' car that runs on gasoline or diesel. Not so green is the fact that lithium and cobalt are used in the batteries and mining those materials is not very environmentally friendly. Personally I don't like electric race cars but I do like electric road cars. For day to day use I think they are actually quite nice and I am certain that within 10 years probably 70 to 80% of all new cars on the market will be electric. I hope this post is not too shocking coming from the administrator of a racing forum! |
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