December's MotorSport

[chrisb]

has just arrived, must read the article properly but having quickly glanced at 'great rivals' I take exception to a few, actually quite a few - more of this later, but outside of Senna/Prost was the greatest rivalry really Varzi and Nuvolari? and no mention of Fangio and Ascari- or Rodriquez and Siffert, amongst others, may well be conducting my own lists 

which leads me to a point, no Italian champions since 1954, surely that is a travesty?

[charleselan]

Just had a quick nose on the MS Forum and noted the details of the latest magazine, not sure if it is the same one as Chris has mentioned above, as i have been out of touch recently. 

However I am interested to see that they mention an article in it on Mike Thackwell which I would be very interested in reading. I recall a few years ago there being an excellent one by the much missed Rob Widdows who sought out Mike from his reclusive life style of today, and gained some insight into one of the greatest unfulfilled talents.

[chrisb]

yes JC it is the same, I am still irritated by this 'greatest rivals' piece which I find extremely lazy and inaccurate, as I mention above and will, when time permits consider 'greater rivals than MS considers' and perhaps post it here - I mean there is no mention of AJ vs the world, or Peter Brock, John Love etc, but the feel that Brabham's fan car vs the paddock, not impressed, 

[charleselan]

I had a quick look at the supposed "great rivalries" on the MS web pages; very poor indeed and some weren't even rivalries as such. I may be incorrect but I did not see for instance, Steve Soper v's John Cleland; Peter Brock v's Alan Moffat; JYS v's Jochen Rindt; Stirling Moss v's Mike Hawthorne; TWR Jaguar v's Porsche v's Sauber Mercedes; TWR Rover v's BMW (ETC); Mika Hakkinen v's Michael Schumacher etc; etc............

[chrisb]

Hear hear JC, I must admit this has riled me, and have confined this edition to the attic prematurely, but have refrained from emailing MS with my disgust for their selections, not only missing your above selections there is no mention of:

Ascari and Fangio,
Fangio and Hawthorn
Stirling and ditto
Jimmy and Stirling [South Africa 1961/2 winter series]
Jimmy and Dan /Jackie

there are the obvious ones: Niki/ James- Alain/ Ayrton- Piquet/Nigel- Lewis/Nico- Seb Loeb / Seb Ogier-Seb and Mark

but what of Dale Earnhardt vs everyone - The King Petty vs Donnie Allison - Russel Brookes and Jimmy McRae - Ago and Mike - Sheene and Kenny Roberts- everyone in the 500cc era- Rossi and Biagi- Colin and Richard - in surely one of the very best era's of rallying- Jack Sears and Tommy Sopwith- Al Unser Jnr and Mike Andretti, Unser vs Unser - Aj vs everyone- Joey Dunlop vs Dave Jeffries - to mention but a few and certainly far more competitive than MS's selection 

then there are the marques:
1950's - Jaguar and Ferrari-
1960/70 Porsche and Ferrari
1980's- Porsche and Jaguar vs Mercedes
2010's - Porsche and Audi

in F1- Vanwall vs Ferrari - Lotus vs BRM - Lotus vs Tyrell, McLaren vs Ferrari to mention but a few- this did made me think: of all the rivalries that were just beginning but tragedy prevented this - for instance

Wimille vs Farina, Ascari and Fangio,
Ascari and Fangio in 1955
Stirling and Jimmy
Jimmy and Jackie
Ronnie and Gilles
Ayrton and Michael,

had not fate intervened I wonder who would have been victorious?

well that is off my chest, hesitated before posting this-  

[robmarsh]

I agree with you Chris, what could have been a great long running series of articles has been consigned to the attic both figuratively and literary.

[robmarsh]

I was thinking that some of the new generation of motor sport journalists are very young and hence inexperienced. If they do not have a penchant for studying the history of their chosen sport then we will be the recipients of lightweight articles like the one in question.

I guess we have been spoilt as through the likes of Bill Boddy, Jenks, Hamilton, Treymayne, Nye, Young, Crombec et al we have always had access to someone who has both feet firmly planted in the past and present. Does the onus fall on us now?

[charleselan]

Good points, well made Chris & Rob.

I think inexperience and a profound lack of knowledge of the history of the sport is pre-eminent with many of the younger motor sport journalists these days, also there are many of our generations who have a huge amount of knowledge of the past 50 years or more that also highlight this discrepancy, grand mother and sucking eggs come to mind.

One could add to your excellent list Chris, Hizzy & Foggy at the IOM TT over a few years, they hated one another but were good mates, almost like sibling rivalry. Also in the "what if's" I think we should have Gilles & Ayrton that would have been something.

P.S. Could someone confirm if the Mike Thackwell piece is any good, no one has confirmed my earlier comment on this?

[chrisb]

cheers chaps, definitely JC- how totally remis of me to overlook one of the fiercest competitors, an age thing I wonder, and Gilles vs Ayrton, somehow that never arises in people's thoughts, speed vs speed and ruthlessness, but my word what would that have been like in the rain? awww

Rob, totally spot on, I do feel we were so blessed with such great writers and photographers, we have been rather spoiled and fortunate that so many really cared for not only the present but for the past.

 JC I would concur and add indifference at best or laziness at worst, it does make me bristle - I haven't checked the MS forum and am reluctant to do so

JC, there isn't an article on Mike in the December edition, there is a lengthy piece on Jenson and lunch with Tommi Makinen, although packed with a lot of words it is the poorest MS since Joe took over, sorry JC

[charleselan]

Dec 30, 2019 8:16:58 GMT chrisb said:

cheers chaps, definitely JC- how totally remis of me to overlook one of the fiercest competitors, an age thing I wonder, and Gilles vs Ayrton, somehow that never arises in people's thoughts, speed vs speed and ruthlessness, but my word what would that have been like in the rain? awww

Rob, totally spot on, I do feel we were so blessed with such great writers and photographers, we have been rather spoiled and fortunate that so many really cared for not only the present but for the past.

 JC I would concur and add indifference at best or laziness at worst, it does make me bristle - I haven't checked the MS forum and am reluctant to do so

JC, there isn't an article on Mike in the December edition, there is a lengthy piece on Jenson and lunch with Tommi Makinen, although packed with a lot of words it is the poorest MS since Joe took over, sorry JC

Chris,

It was a case of me misreading the rather strangely placed latest copy news on the MS site, they were in fact referring to the 2020 February edition which i took to be the latest issue, not bright advertising it this way in my opinion. It is this copy that will have the piece on Mike Thackwell. It will also feature lunch with Tim Harvey, and have material by Doug Nye on the Lotus 78 and big feature on Aston Martin with the emphasis being placed on the 1960's Project cars and the Zagato DB4.

The current copy does not sound inspiring at all so understand both you and Rob consigning it to the attic.

On the rivalry front wouldn't it make a great read about the guys who were intense rivals on track but great friends off it; Oh! and one of the biggest that we have all missed (I believe i am correct in this) what about Pedro & Seppi? I do not think they come anywhere near that level.

Talking of Seppi, I was watching a great recording of the complete 1971 Monaco GP the other week and it seems forgotten that Mr Siffert was running JYS very hard in the early stages driving his Yardley BRN P160, until that is the achilles heal of the car that year began to play up. Pedro on the other hand was doing a good job of frustrating Ronnie, blocking him for lap after lap which probably cost Super Swede the chance of catching an ailing JYS. I think Ronnie was somewhat tee'd off about that after the race.

[chrisb]

good point about Pedro and Seppi JC, there was such intense rivalry in those heady days, how did I overlook this? that sounds like a good start for a new thread?

great rivals but great friends?

Jimmy and Graham would be my number one, Niki and Alain would be up there, but would Fangio and Stirling? great friends but a sense of subservience for me, that is a great idea JC, I think this requires further thought and research, I mean who was Brian Redman's great rival and friends? mmm, interesting

[charleselan]

It would indeed make for an interesting feature or discussion point Chris.

I would agree that Jim and Graham would be right at the top, along with JYS and Jochen. Then there could be the likes of Ronnie & Emerson; Ronnie & Mario; Gilles & Jody; Bruce & Denny; Mike Hawthorn & Pete Collins; even Gilles & Didier until that fateful day at Imola 1982. 

Yes agreed that Fangio & Moss were more like master and apprentice somewhat like JYS and François; might dare to mention Sebastian & Charles......... maybe not .

[chrisb]

have recvd this month's MS and there is a feature on Mike and his sister - a quick glance shows it is brief


perhaps we can develop this idea JC

[charleselan]

Jan 1, 2020 11:42:48 GMT chrisb said:

have recvd this month's MS and there is a feature on Mike and his sister - a quick glance shows it is brief


perhaps we can develop this idea JC

Not impressed then Chris? Could have been very good as a decent follow up to Rob Widdows excellent article on Mike a few years back.

Maybe we need to start our own online magazine as an offshoot from RRT .

P.S. Then our own YouTube channel, all you have to do is sit at a desk and talk to a camera, from my experience anyway .

[robmarsh]

You tube sounds an interesting idea Charles. I am sure we could do alright based on some I've seen.