Canadian Grand Prix - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

[René]

Damn. What a farce.

[mikael]

Jun 9, 2019 22:42:34 GMT René said:

Damn. What a farce.

I agree ... the 5 sec. penalty might have been appropriate if Vettel had calculated to squeeze Hamilton off the track. But it wasn't the case at all. He was too busy saving his own car to notice where Hamilton were.

And Hamilton reacted very quickly; so nothing happened. But if something had happened (if Hamilton hadn't been able to brake sufficiently and there had been contact) it would have been a "racing incident" - nothing else; that's my impression ...

On another note, Vettel apparently lost the rear downforce. Was that really due to turbulence from those not-so-close back markers?

[Deleted]

Jun 9, 2019 22:42:34 GMT René said:

Damn. What a farce.

I wonder whether Seb had a little extra right flick of 'opposite' lock to 'control' his car just that little bit 'better'... I dunno, is it possible he had a feeling Lewis would have a shot up the right on the exit and therefore just eased it across a smidge to ward him off?

Just wondering whether it's possible... not saying Seb did it, necessarily, it's likely he was just reacting with opposite lock with the car's rear bouncing around, I'm only asking a little question about whether anyone thinks it's POSSIBLE Seb had some blocking intent there?  

[Carl]

Jun 10, 2019 1:32:52 GMT @billinsydney said:

Jun 9, 2019 22:42:34 GMT René said:

Damn. What a farce.

I wonder whether Seb had a little extra right flick of 'opposite' lock to 'control' his car just that little bit 'better'... I dunno, is it possible he had a feeling Lewis would have a shot up the right on the exit and therefore just eased it across a smidge to ward him off?

Just wondering whether it's possible... not saying Seb did it, necessarily, it's likely he was just reacting with opposite lock with the car's rear bouncing around, I'm only asking a little question about whether anyone thinks it's POSSIBLE Seb had some blocking intent there?  

It's possible, but I agree with you that it's likely he did not.   

[Carl]

I'd never felt sorry for Sebastien Vettel, but I did today. He came back on track as he did because it wasn't possible to slow or tighten his line while traversing grass at 100 mph.

Mercedes, as was their right, asked the Stewards to review the incident and what every racing driver there as part of the broadcast proclaimed clearly was a racing incident was adjudged to be a violation of the rules. Bullshit.

Hamilton and Vettel are both great drivers with long histories of punting teammates off track, ignoring team orders they dislike and freely soiling their panties since someone else does their laundry. Now both are older, trying on big-boy underwear and making noises they imagine elders of the sport would make. Bullshit. Neither has ever had to mature and so they pretend.

But today at Turn 4, Sebastien Vettel did nothing wrong. Had Mercedes taken five minutes to review the incident themselves, they might have seen that. Hamilton won the race but Mercedes and Formula One both lost face, which will last far longer.

[robmarsh]

Jun 9, 2019 22:42:34 GMT René said:

Damn. What a farce.

I agree totally.

[Deleted]

Jun 9, 2019 22:42:34 GMT René said:

Damn. What a farce.

But what a fabulous race until the stewards made their shockingly bad decision.
How many times did Hamilton get into DRS range, then lock a wheel on the way into the hairpin, while trying to close the gap on Vettel. Only for Vettel to restore a 1 to 2 sec gap, before catching a back marker and triggering the whole process again?

It was a saunch drive from Vettel, under immense pressure, backed up by a solid drive to third by Leclerc.
That drive must do wonders for Vettel's confidence.Having the win taken away must do even more for his motivation, and the performance of both cars must give Ferrari heart to take the fight to Mercedes for the rest of the season.
 

[mikael]

In whatever way, the reasons of the stewards for penalizing Vettel - as discussed in an article on Autosport's webpage - are interesting.

Link:
www.autosport.com/f1/news/143996/vettel-steering-inputs-key-to-fia-penalty-decision

Full citation (if it's a problem (w.r.t. copyright) I'll remove the citation again):

A second steering wheel input from Sebastian Vettel after he regained control of his Ferrari Formula 1 car was pivotal in his Canadian Grand Prix penalty, Autosport has learned.

The Montreal F1 stewards ruled that Vettel had rejoined the track in an unsafe manner following his error at the first chicane with 22 laps to go and forced Lewis Hamilton off the circuit.

The five-second penalty imposed for the incident meant Vettel lost what would have been his and Ferrari's first win of the 2019 F1 season to Hamilton.

Vettel was adamant he had done nothing wrong, and said he had been powerless in the situation because his car was out of control after running over the grass.

But while it is clear from on board footage that Vettel was battling to control his car as he bounced off the grass onto the circuit again, it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on Vettel's actions at the point he had effectively recovered from the incident.

The stewards examined slow motion footage of Vettel's actions from the moment that he had regained control and started steering his car - and felt the evidence showed that he could have made different choices that would have been within the rules.

The footage clearly captures Vettel correcting an oversteer moment as he rejoins the track - which is shown by a sharp steering wheel movement to the right.

Shortly after that, Vettel has sorted the oversteer and begins steering to the left to follow the direction of the circuit - suggesting he is now under control.

But a split moment later, rather than keeping to the left, Vettel is shown to release the steering wheel - which allows his car to drift to the right, cutting off the route that Hamilton would have taken had he had clear space.

The movement to straighten the wheel, which put the Ferrari into the path of Hamilton's Mercedes, is believed to be key to the unanimous decision by the stewards to punish Vettel.

The stewards also used an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international television feed, showing Vettel moving his head and looking in the mirrors to see Hamilton was during the moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right.

On board footage of the Vettel incident also shows his head turning towards the mirrors in the moment when he is drifting out - suggesting he knew where Hamilton was.

Had Vettel kept his car tight to the left once he had regained control, then there was likely enough room to have allowed Hamilton through on the right - in which case the matter would almost certainly not have been investigated.

The fact that telemetry data showed Hamilton had to brake to avoid the collision with Vettel indicated how the Mercedes driver was caught out by his rival's actions.

Precedent for the decision to punish Vettel for both rejoining the track in an unsafe manner and forcing a rival off the track was made last year in Japan when Max Verstappen was hit with a five-second penalty for a collision with Kimi Raikkonen at the chicane.

Verstappen had run wide at the chicane on the first lap of the race and rejoined in an aggressive manner, pushing Raikkonen wide on the exit.

At the time, the late F1 race director Charlie Whiting said: "You are required to rejoin safely and Kimi was there and [Verstappen was] pushing him off the track. So I think that was a fairly straightforward one for the stewards."

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2019 8:26:59 GMT mikael said:

In whatever way, the reasons of the stewards for penalizing Vettel - as discussed in an article on Autosport's webpage - are interesting.

Link:
www.autosport.com/f1/news/143996/vettel-steering-inputs-key-to-fia-penalty-decision

Full citation (if it's a problem (w.r.t. copyright) I'll remove the citation again):

A second steering wheel input from Sebastian Vettel after he regained control of his Ferrari Formula 1 car was pivotal in his Canadian Grand Prix penalty, Autosport has learned.

The Montreal F1 stewards ruled that Vettel had rejoined the track in an unsafe manner following his error at the first chicane with 22 laps to go and forced Lewis Hamilton off the circuit.

The five-second penalty imposed for the incident meant Vettel lost what would have been his and Ferrari's first win of the 2019 F1 season to Hamilton.

Vettel was adamant he had done nothing wrong, and said he had been powerless in the situation because his car was out of control after running over the grass.

But while it is clear from on board footage that Vettel was battling to control his car as he bounced off the grass onto the circuit again, it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on Vettel's actions at the point he had effectively recovered from the incident.

The stewards examined slow motion footage of Vettel's actions from the moment that he had regained control and started steering his car - and felt the evidence showed that he could have made different choices that would have been within the rules.

The footage clearly captures Vettel correcting an oversteer moment as he rejoins the track - which is shown by a sharp steering wheel movement to the right.

Shortly after that, Vettel has sorted the oversteer and begins steering to the left to follow the direction of the circuit - suggesting he is now under control.

But a split moment later, rather than keeping to the left, Vettel is shown to release the steering wheel - which allows his car to drift to the right, cutting off the route that Hamilton would have taken had he had clear space.

The movement to straighten the wheel, which put the Ferrari into the path of Hamilton's Mercedes, is believed to be key to the unanimous decision by the stewards to punish Vettel.

The stewards also used an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international television feed, showing Vettel moving his head and looking in the mirrors to see Hamilton was during the moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right.

On board footage of the Vettel incident also shows his head turning towards the mirrors in the moment when he is drifting out - suggesting he knew where Hamilton was.

Had Vettel kept his car tight to the left once he had regained control, then there was likely enough room to have allowed Hamilton through on the right - in which case the matter would almost certainly not have been investigated.

The fact that telemetry data showed Hamilton had to brake to avoid the collision with Vettel indicated how the Mercedes driver was caught out by his rival's actions.

Precedent for the decision to punish Vettel for both rejoining the track in an unsafe manner and forcing a rival off the track was made last year in Japan when Max Verstappen was hit with a five-second penalty for a collision with Kimi Raikkonen at the chicane.

Verstappen had run wide at the chicane on the first lap of the race and rejoined in an aggressive manner, pushing Raikkonen wide on the exit.

At the time, the late F1 race director Charlie Whiting said: "You are required to rejoin safely and Kimi was there and [Verstappen was] pushing him off the track. So I think that was a fairly straightforward one for the stewards."

Sorry to say it, boys, but I think Seb doth protest too much. 

GUILTY!!! 

[René]

Jun 10, 2019 1:32:52 GMT @billinsydney said:

Jun 9, 2019 22:42:34 GMT René said:

Damn. What a farce.

I wonder whether Seb had a little extra right flick of 'opposite' lock to 'control' his car just that little bit 'better'... I dunno, is it possible he had a feeling Lewis would have a shot up the right on the exit and therefore just eased it across a smidge to ward him off?

Just wondering whether it's possible... not saying Seb did it, necessarily, it's likely he was just reacting with opposite lock with the car's rear bouncing around, I'm only asking a little question about whether anyone thinks it's POSSIBLE Seb had some blocking intent there? 

You're allowed to move once, aren't you?

[René]

Jun 10, 2019 5:55:49 GMT Carl said:

But today at Turn 4, Sebastien Vettel did nothing wrong. Had Mercedes taken five minutes to review the incident themselves, they might have seen that. Hamilton won the race but Mercedes and Formula One both lost face, which will last far longer.

Amen to that Carl.

[René]

Jun 10, 2019 7:58:31 GMT @jakobusvdl said:

Jun 9, 2019 22:42:34 GMT René said:

Damn. What a farce.

But what a fabulous race until the stewards made their shockingly bad decision.
How many times did Hamilton get into DRS range, then lock a wheel on the way into the hairpin, while trying to close the gap on Vettel. Only for Vettel to restore a 1 to 2 sec gap, before catching a back marker and triggering the whole process again?

It was a saunch drive from Vettel, under immense pressure, backed up by a solid drive to third by Leclerc.
That drive must do wonders for Vettel's confidence.Having the win taken away must do even more for his motivation, and the performance of both cars must give Ferrari heart to take the fight to Mercedes for the rest of the season.
 

You're right Jim, it was a good race. That probably made the disappointment even bigger for most fans. It was such a let down.

I agree there are positives to take from this race for Ferrari but for me a bit early. I am still gutted.

[René]

Jun 10, 2019 8:26:59 GMT mikael said:

In whatever way, the reasons of the stewards for penalizing Vettel - as discussed in an article on Autosport's webpage - are interesting.

Link:
www.autosport.com/f1/news/143996/vettel-steering-inputs-key-to-fia-penalty-decision

I read that also Mikael but I feel that is an over analysis of a racing incident. It all happened in a split second. Two of the best racing drivers in the world completely on the limit. One makes a small error that he miraculously recovers from and then they penalize him. It destroyed the race and maybe, if Ferrari can continue this form, has a negative impact on the title fight.

Seb knew Lewis was there, he even said so on the radio. Of course he looked in his mirror when he regained control!

The radio conversation between Seb and his engineer:

Adami: "We've got a five-second time penalty for unsafe re-entry - head down, head down. Hamilton three seconds behind..."

Vettel: "I had nowhere to go. Seriously, I had nowhere to go. I did see him."

Adami: "Copy."

"Obviously it wasn't voluntarily going sailing across the track"
Sebastian Vettel
Vettel: "I had to go through the grass, and you come back, he has amazing grip, where the hell am I supposed to go? I have grass on my wheels. It's his fault if he decides to go that way. If he goes to the inside he'd have gone past me."

Adami: "OK, stay focused, copy that, stay focused. Ten laps to go."

Vettel: "I am focused. But they are stealing the race from us."

[Carl]

One problem in knowing the truth is the absence of entirely reliable witnesses. It happened so fast and everyone involved was biased throughout.

I believe Martin Brundle comes closest to neutrality and he's adamant it was a racing incident. The Stewards may have wrongly relied on precedent in an entirely unique situation and should instead have taken no action.

[mikael]

Not related directly to the incident with Vettel's "grass cutting", unsafe reentry, and following penalty (again, I fully agree it shouldn't have been penalized) - but regarding "grass cutting", even in the 1950's efforts were made to discourage drivers to do so.

To cite Taruffi's "The Techniques of Motor Racing" (1959) (and to use, not the exact right but very similar, photos for illustration:


To prevent drivers from "grass cutting", at Monza, the organizers have built sloping kerbs.


At Aintree, however, they use a sort of fence.

If running off the track always, automatically,  were penalized - in an non-hazardous way -  then there would be a lot less problems. A modern version of the approaches shown above could be, for example: if four (or just two) wheels are off the track, then the ignition is cut - automatically - for five seconds. This could easily be realized nowadays.