Rally Nostalgia

[charleselan]

Great post Mikael and follow up by Carl.

Those Saab's were something else, amazing little cars and along with the Volvo's of the time (1960/70's) gained quite a cult following in the UK. They were quality cars, well built, safe and owned by decreeing motorists.

The guys that drove the Saab rally cars were all outstanding drivers especially in the forest stages that at the time did not allow for pace notes. As I have mentioned above Stig Blomquist was probably my favourite rally driver of all time, an incredible talent and over many years in a huge variety of cars.

On the subject of rallying nostalgia I have been emerging myself in some incredible footage on YouTube about the fearsome Group B cars of the early/mid 1980's. One film that just has the cars as a soundtrack features many of the Finnish 1000 Lakes Rallies of that period, it is breath taking to watch. Anyone who loves motorsport should watch this film as it just epitomises what rallying was all about at that time and why it was on a par with F1 in popularity. I still get goosebumps when I hear the Audi Quattro's, the sound of that 5 cylinder engine and the turbo waste gate is something that stays with you for ever.

The other film is a two part film about the whole era of Group B and if there is one thing that brings home the stupidity of mankind it is seeing those spectators on some of the European rounds, moronic does not come into it...........

[chrisb]

great posts chaps, I still adore my SAAB's many many great memories, my closest friend still drives a SAAB but sadly spare parts are becoming harder to come by, back in the day if you wanted something that was a bit unique and different but couldn't afford more expensive articles a SAAB was the choice, unpredictable, you drove them until they broke and bought another, great cars, good grunt and fun, especially in the snow, I had a top of the range Aero automatic estate that was amazing and would tread where 4 x 4's feared to do so, oh that was fun, especially when you overtook them in the snow...as if... 

I have been so fortunate to have seen and met so many great rally stars, socialising with these 'quiet' stars was an education, but good fun, Colin McRae will always remain my favourite and the battles with Richard Burns will always be the peak of my interest. The group B cars were awesome and I was so fortunate to have driven one, the acceleration was just mind boggling, but meeting all the greats Rhorl, Hannu, Michele, Bjorn, Stig, wee Henri, funny enough the only one who was a bit off handish - I may have caught him at a bad time was Marku Alen, but these group B cars up close and personal was just out of the world, they really were monsters, what a lot of people don't always remember is just how many manufactueres were involved for that period,
Audi, Citroen; Ford; Lancia; Mazda; MG; Nissan; Peugeot; Renault and Toyota amongst them

I was at the Portuguese rally in the early 80's and the crowds were just maniacs in a form of macho bull fighting, the drivers hated it, and all expected a disaster, which of course is what happened.

The current rallying scene is also pretty good, there is good competition, although UK interest is reduced now Kris Meeke has been dropped by Toyota and although we have the Evans boy that is about it. despite this and my lamenting that there isn't a wealth of British talent showing through it is a pretty good series that I am enjoying

[charleselan]

You indeed were most privileged Chris in meeting all those incredible guys, absolute legends all of them. Did you forget Ari, or didn't you rate him ? Marku was a great driver who really should have been world champion but never was. I saw an interview with Rohrl a while back and he was fulsome in his praise for mark's abilities, interesting that as Walter seldom has a good to say about any of his competitors seemingly only interested in his own greatness. I am probably a little harsh in that statement but he always comes across to me as being very keen to say how great he himself was. Agreed he was super quick especially with pace notes, but not impressive on stages when pace notes were not allowed, as in the older RAC Rallies.

I always remember him failing to turn up when he was an Opel Manta works driver, I think they sacked him for that and he then went to Audi. In a way he was a bit like Fangio, in that Rohrl always engineered himself into the best car. He also constantly complained the year he drove the Audi S2 Quattro with the PDK gearbox fitted. Fantastic hearing that car in the dark forests that year however, especially when in the Forest of Dean where we could hear it miles away across the Wye Valley and then when it flashed into view 5 minutes later. Awesome times..........

I too have watched the highlights of WRC over the past few seasons and it is better than a lot of modern motor sport classes, but when one compares it to what used to be it sadly pales. Like F1 so sanitised and corporate and not to my taste. Although i do not doubt that some of the top guys are every bit as good as many in the past.

Here are some of the Group B films that I have been watching, just amazing.......

[chrisb]

ahh, the ageing memory JC, yes I did forget to mention the wonderful Ari, spectacular didn't cover Ari did it? I saw him in Hungary walking to his hotel whilst I was out eating one time when he was up against Jean Todt for the presidency, sadly for us he lost, but always approachable and hugely talented, so so fortunate to survive that dreadful accident - in was it Argentina?

Walter was mercenary and didn't care, but - oh memory what was the story with Tony Fall?

Race Retro always features at least one Group B car and the noise is just so refreshing and if there is one series that for me has bucked the trend it is WRC, I am hoping to get the UK rally this year but we'll see, I will go to the Race Retro and have just received the info, hopefully Jamie can get some time off and we can meet up again this year

[charleselan]

Jan 8, 2020 16:24:09 GMT chrisb said:

ahh, the ageing memory JC, yes I did forget to mention the wonderful Ari, spectacular didn't cover Ari did it? I saw him in Hungary walking to his hotel whilst I was out eating one time when he was up against Jean Todt for the presidency, sadly for us he lost, but always approachable and hugely talented, so so fortunate to survive that dreadful accident - in was it Argentina?

Walter was mercenary and didn't care, but - oh memory what was the story with Tony Fall?

Race Retro always features at least one Group B car and the noise is just so refreshing and if there is one series that for me has bucked the trend it is WRC, I am hoping to get the UK rally this year but we'll see, I will go to the Race Retro and have just received the info, hopefully Jamie can get some time off and we can meet up again this year

With regard to Ari, it was slightly tongue in cheek as I knew you would be a fan Chris. He does speak so beautifully about the Group B era in one of the films above that I have attached, likens driving the Peugeot 205 T16 to playing a fine musical instrument (a violin I seem to remember). His accident was appalling and could well have killed him save for the helicopter ambulance that rescued him; it did leave him with serious injuries however that were very hard to recover from. Ari was wonderfully talented as a driver and a wonderful man being in every sense, he would have made a superb and revolutionary head of the FIA.

In one of the films above we see a much younger Jean Todt, who it has to be said seems a very different man from what we see today. Ari himself was fulsome in his praise for Todt as a team manger at Peugeot, stating that he was a marvellous man manager.

My view of Walter Rohrl has not improved following further viewings of these films where her says quite openly that "no one was faster than me on a special stage", in this particular film it refers to him also saying that the only one who could match him was Henri Toivonen and that as only occasionally. Well I heard a similar comment applied to Ari from Walter as well.

It obviously passes Herr Rohrl by that he was never quick on the RAC Rally, nor was he on the 1000 Lakes or the Swedish Rally.

[mikael]

Thank you for the movie links, JC. Group B rally of the mid-80's is always fascinating to watch. Strange to think about that, those cars had more power than the last generation of the Cosworth DFV F1 engine - even something like 100 HP more. It was really "crazy" !

But real crazy were the ungovernable spectators that filled up the special stage roads, and jumped out of the way only at the absolutely very last moment. I recall that it also went wrong a couple of times, with a car plowing into a whole field of spectators - just like it was bound to happen at some time or another, under such conditions. Those accidents - which were very damaging for Group B - had nothing to do with that the (Group B) cars were too fast; it was simply a lack of discipline-problem. Luckily, the organizers have become better at crowd control in recent years.

[charleselan]

Jan 11, 2020 6:16:34 GMT mikael said:

Thank you for the movie links, JC. Group B rally of the mid-80's is always fascinating to watch. Strange to think about that, those cars had more power than the last generation of the Cosworth DFV F1 engine - even something like 100 HP more. It was really "crazy" !

But real crazy were the ungovernable spectators that filled up the special stage roads, and jumped out of the way only at the absolutely very last moment. I recall that it also went wrong a couple of times, with a car plowing into a whole field of spectators - just like it was bound to happen at some time or another, under such conditions. Those accidents - which were very damaging for Group B - had nothing to do with that the (Group B) cars were too fast; it was simply a lack of discipline-problem. Luckily, the organizers have become better at crowd control in recent years.

Mikael,

It was a golden age of rallying but due to the almost hedonistic rules it was doomed to end badly. The cars were truly incredible; brutally powerful as you suggest and demanding to drive like nothing I have ever seen in any form of motor sport. Seeing those incredible drivers after a special stage just goes to prove how difficult and physically draining those cars were to drive. Never before had we seen teams employing physio's to treat their drivers, and neither had any other branch of the sport either.

The spectator issue was absurd to any one with a rational point of view. I will probably be accused of being nationalistic or even racist here but it was a phenomena that was exclusive to latin parts of Europe. There was never any hint of this sort of stupidity in the UK as the stages were marshalled by experienced and knowledgeable people and the spectators had respect for what was unfolding before them. The same applied to Finland and Sweden, and from what i have seen the people in Africa were also pretty safe in the wilds of the Safari Rally.

It has to be said that the spectators on the Monte Carlo Rally were also pretty cavalier about matters and had been for many a year, with known issues of them throwing snow balls at the cars as they passed by and also placing snow on the road of what would have been a dry stage. This usually happened if a non French guy was leading and these drivers bore the brunt of such despicable acts.

Personally I think that the major car manufacturers who were taking part in the 1980's were derelict in their responsibilities and should have withdrawn their cars if they knew the stages were being run in such an uncontrolled manner. They had far more clout than the drivers, and should have sorted the matter before it got out of hand.

[mikael]

JC,
yes, it did seem that the problems with unruly spectators were limited to just a couple of locations.

In the book "Cars at Speed" by Robert Daley, which I have mentioned in another thread, there is a chapter called "Juan M. Fangio and Juan D. Peron", about the early Grand Prix's in Argentina, arranged under the patronage of Peron. For several times, the situations at the Argentine GP's were just like by, say, the Rally of Portugal of '85 or '86, with ungovernable spectators breaking through the fence and moving, in great scores, right down to the track side. See, e.g. the race reports for the 1953 Argentine Grand Prix, and the 1949 (non-championship) Buenos Aires Grand Prix:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Argentine_Grand_Prix

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Buenos_Aires_Grand_Prix_(I)

There may be a natural explanation to such a behavior. The Peron Administration of Argentina in the 1940's and 50's was, essentially, a dictatorship, and people were not used to act in accordance with the guidelines/orders of the authorities; quite on the contrary - they rather though about how to realize a revolution!

It was the same with Portugal, where the situation in Rallies was at its worst. The Estado Novo government, which lasted from 1926 to 1974, and which was led by Salazar from 1926 to 1970, was likewise, essentially, a dictatorship. Hence, as I understand it, authorities were disliked and not respected,  and people were used to doing just as they thought fit.



Grand Prix of Argentina 1953

[chrisb]

fascinating Mikael and JC, one forgets just how long some of these dictators survived, I was at the Portuguese Rally in 1981 or 3 [need to check] and can testify to their 'enthusiasm' and it really was a case of 'macho mentality' almost seeing themselves as some sort of bull-fighters, but not just with the rally cars but with the service vehicles as well, scary, and at the end of the day bloody stupid 

wasn't there a famous Jenks remark about the crowds on the Millie Miglia when Stirling expressed his concerns over crowd control? trying to remember exactly what he said - another circuit that caused a great deal of angst was Mexico in the late 60's and early 70's and again it was almost a one party Government - although my knowledge of Mexican political history is a bit vague, I do know a lot of freedom was crushed in 1968 and a more democratic lifestyle wasn't established until the late 70's, but then I am not truly sure of my facts

the 1980's - weren't they awesome from a Motor Sport perspective? the amount of power available to the right foot was just incredible, gosh heady days, the Rally cars were fascinating, the Lancia just looked so fast but flimsy, the Peugeot looked and went so well, but the ones I liked the most were the Metro 6R4, the Ford RS200 and the ultimate Quattro with it amazing amount of power and it's acceleration with that incredible noise, it is still my abiding memory, especially at the RAC rally that year, they really were something. They must have been incredible to drive, but thinking back about it, the Lancia's were very different, all the others looked so solid by comparison, the Lancia's looked like go karts with plastic kits, but my word were they quick, and looked spectacular, I remember asking the petrol company if I could have the road going version as a company car, I ended up with a Sierra, not pleased, 

[charleselan]

Very interesting points Mikael and I had not considered those Argentinian GP's having similar crowd issues. Like Chris i was going to mention the Mexican GP's and especially the 1970 race where the drivers initially refused to race due to the crowds gathering right on the white lines at the trackside. The military apparently succeeded in moving them back for the race to begin but as soon as it was underway they moved back to the very edge of the track totally oblivious to their own safety.

I am wondering if the Argentine race(s) were a left over from the early days where film footage always shows the spectators close to the track edge. Even in the early 1970's spectators can be seen on events such as the Targa Florio right on the edge of the track or stood immediately behind the ARMCO barriers. Of course as Chris points out the Mille Miglia also had similar issues and in the end proved fatal when Fon de Portago had his tragic accident.

Chris your comment about the Lancia cars is very pertinent, they were death traps to my way of thinking. Looking at the grizzly remains of Henri's car in Corsica one can see just how flimsy they were. The Peugeot's were a little better, but to my way of thinking the 6R4 and RS200 were far superior in construction, and not surprising that Williams had a big hand in the 6R4 and that Tony Southgate was involved with the RS200.

The Audi Quattro is a given and that as based on a "proper" mainstream production vehicle, bit some racing car for the stages. This to my way of thinking is where Group B went astray with the parameters of the rules that were put in place. Cars like the Audi is how it should have evolved.

[Carl]

Jan 12, 2020 13:23:08 GMT charleselan said:

Very interesting points Mikael and I had not considered those Argentinian GP's having similar crowd issues. Like Chris i was going to mention the Mexican GP's and especially the 1970 race where the drivers initially refused to race due to the crowds gathering right on the white lines at the trackside. The military apparently succeeded in moving them back for the race to begin but as soon as it was underway they moved back to the very edge of the track totally oblivious to their own safety.

I am wondering if the Argentine race(s) were a left over from the early days where film footage always shows the spectators close to the track edge. Even in the early 1970's spectators can be seen on events such as the Targa Florio right on the edge of the track or stood immediately behind the ARMCO barriers. Of course as Chris points out the Mille Miglia also had similar issues and in the end proved fatal when Fon de Portago had his tragic accident.

In tandem with defiance of authority, cultural traditions may be at play.  The countries where spectators were so incredibly reckless share two cultural similarities, a Latin stereotype masculinity and popular national sports involving being chased by enraged bulls.

[charleselan]

Over the past week while looking through YouTube on my TV I have come across some brilliant rally films from the 1980's posted by VHS Rallies; all were originally produced and shown by the UK ITV channel on its Saturday afternoon "World of Sport" program. Not only is there some fantastic coverage of the world championship events but also the then high quality British Championship series.

Last night I watched the 1982 Circuit of Ireland event which had a top quality entry of all the British drivers except Tony Pond and Mikkola; Vatanen and Toivonen. The Rothmans Opel Manta 400's looks superb and at home on the tarmac stages (loved those cars) and Russell Brookes was flying in his Vauxhall Chevette HSR until he slightly damaged it. Russell's interview at the end of stage was a delight, before he fought back to finish second behind Jimmy McRae in one of the Manta 400's.

As spectacular as Henri Toivonen could be, he was surpassed by the amazing Ari Vatanen in an ageing black and white MSD Ford Escort Mk11.

These are great films and superb quality, and the memories of the brilliant Dickie Davis as World of Sport anchor man are profound.



This is shorter but better film in my opinion.

[René]

Great stuff!

Never saw those rallies back in the day but it's great to watch them now. So nostalgic!

[chrisb]

I remember the British championship with great fondness and respect, it was a brilliant series, from the 70's until the late 90's we had such a wealth of talent, it was fabulous, the cars pre and post B were great, always loved the Mk2's they were really spectacular and then the Quattro arrived and suddenly we were in a different stratosphere - so many great drivers, team and so so competitive, great days, a good testing ground for cars and drivers, we were really blessed in those days 

[mikael]

JC, thank you for posting those movies. As to the second one, from the 1982 Circuit of Ireland, I actually remember it well. At that time, when video recorders started to become popular, a number of tapes with recordings of motorsport broadcasts on British TV circulated in a group of friends of my father's; so we got a tape with just that broadcast. I recall seeing it innumerable times back then, so seeing it again at this time is almost like meeting an old friend.

It often happened that local drivers could beat the stars on home ground. Something like that happened often also in motocross. Many a time, established riders were "shaken" by an unknown local rider, who knew his track in-and-out.