wet weather racing drivers, the good and the great

[chrisb]

following on from several discussions around wet-weather mastery seems like an idea to share thoughts on this wonderful subject -

For me Jimmy will always be at top-spot, but there are several very well know drivers who come extremely close, but here are some thoughts that supports that assertion 

Jimmy - Belgium GP 1963 and 1965 
Gilles, USA practice
Senna - Portugal 1985
Michael - Spain 
Pedro- Brands Hatch 1970 
Ickx - ditto 1974 
Graham Nurburgring 1962 
Ronnie- 1978 Austria 

then I started to realise history is cluttered by great drives and drivers in wet-weather conditions, apparently Ascari has the best ratio of wet-weather wins in history? and then you consider Jenson's amazing ability in changing conditions, which always reminded me of [for you cricket fans] Derek Underwood when it had rained, but I digress. Then Stirling had a very high ratio of wet-weather wins, John Surtees [1966 Spa] - Jackie 1968 Germany, Bellof Monaco 1984, and then consider Hamilton, Vettel and Alesi, all remarkable drives and drivers, but a bit like Derek Underwood in cricket I wondered who were the drivers that made you rub your hands in anticipation when it rained?

For me it is about 'always' being great in the wet, and Ascari has an amazing record, so does Michael and Ayrton but then so does Jacky Ickx and Ronnie, which makes this even more complex, because lets face it if you are a F1 driver, an Endurance racer you are pretty special anyway. My thoughts are around that extra 'special' and my personal top 3: Jimmy, Gilles and Ayrton prove time and time again in the wet they knew no equal - 

what do you think chaps? 

[Deleted]

One that comes to mind, from my imited knowledge, is Vittorio Brambilla at Zeltweg 1975. Not just reading the chronicles of the time - the Italian ones, at least - but looking at the videos in youtube not long ago, he was on different planet that day.

Vittorio got to F1 the hard way, starting from scratch, was pretty much the only who could challenge Jarier, on a works March, in F2 as a privateer and, most importantly, got there way way too old to have a meaningful window of opportunity. But he was mighty good. I have read in an Italian forum a post from an ex-Ferrari engineer who was officiating at Monza in the late '60s one week day. He heard a tuned and noisy production car, some Fiat or so, coming up to Parabolica at full speed, the driver not lifting his foot when they were expecting it and then doing the curve raising the hairs of those few watching. Who's that?? Vittorio.

[Deleted]

What about these?
Ascari in 1953 German GP first qualifying ? 19.5s faster than Fangio on a wet track. Same Ascari at the 1952 Belgian GP. Gonzalez at Silverstone 1954, Stewart on the Ring in 1968...

[mikael]

A very interesting subject.
At the very wet Japanese GP in 2014 I paid, as a Dane, special attention to Magnussen. He started sixth on the grid while Button started seventh. However Magnussen fell back through the field (to finish 14th, ultimately) while Button moved up (to finish 5th). At that time my thought was, "he (Magnussen) is not good enough -- he's not going to make it ...". But Magnussen is still in F1; so rather than Magnussen not driving well, the large gap (up to Button) was probably, as Chris indicates, more due to Button driving outstandingly well in such difficult conditions.

[Deleted]

In the 1964 Solitude GP Surtees had(marginally) the upper hand on Clark in the fierst part when the track was wet. On a drying track Jimmy got ahead and won the race. Both lapped the entire field twice.

[René]

Of the drivers I have actually seen racing these are the names that spring to mind when thinking 'wet weather':

- Gilles
- Ayrton
- Jean
- Michael
- Jenson
- Lewis
- Sebastian
and... last but certainly not least, Max!

[Carl]

As enthusiasts, we all enjoy driving on wet roads because smoothness is of paramount importance and having 600 bhp is not an advantage. Only when traffic is heavy am I less than delighted to drive in the rain.

All the greats understand what to do, but not all enjoy the special challenges eagerly embraced by Regenmeisters. I always think about Jean-Pierre Beltoise's brilliant drive at Monaco in 1972, a wonderful opportunity for him to shine unimpeded.

[Deleted]

Jim Clark said in 1965 that the 1962 German GP was his best drive. His first lap there is probably the greatest first lap by any driver in F1 history
Stefan Bellof's drive at Monaco 1984 was also outstanding, after passing Arnoux he was catching Senna at a rate of 1s/lap.

[charleselan]

Jan 7, 2018 17:16:31 GMT Carl said:

As enthusiasts, we all enjoy driving on wet roads because smoothness is of paramount importance and having 600 bhp is not an advantage. Only when traffic is heavy am I less than delighted to drive in the rain.

All the greats understand what to do, but not all enjoy the special challenges eagerly embraced by Regenmeisters. I always think about Jean-Pierre Beltoise's brilliant drive at Monaco in 1972, a wonderful opportunity for him to shine unimpeded.

Carl,

I fully concur with your choice of JPB at Monaco 1972, a truly outstanding drive, no fluke just sheer artistry.

Jim Clark's drive at the Nurburgring in 1962 was absolute genius, however in the end he settled on common sense after scaring himself one too many times. He did much the same in the little 1600cc Lotus 23 during the Nurburgring 1000Kms also in 1962, until overcome by exhaust fumes he led the works Ferrari's of much greater cubic capacity.

Some other outstanding wet weather drives, and not necessarily GP based:-

Stirling Moss 1961 Silverstone Intercontinental Trophy.
Jochen Rindt 1969 Silverstone International Trophy.
Jacky Ickx 1967 Spa 1000Kms.
Ronnie Peterson 1974 Spanish GP.

JC

[Carl]

Jan 7, 2018 13:03:16 GMT René said:

Of the drivers I have actually seen racing these are the names that spring to mind when thinking 'wet weather':

- Gilles
- Ayrton
- Jean
- Michael
- Jenson
- Lewis
- Sebastian
and... last but certainly not least, Max!

Rene,

Verstappen astonished everyone at Interlagos.  Great photo of his outside pass of Rosberg!  For the moment, Nico is looking at the Red Bull rather than his line!

[René]

Jan 7, 2018 19:55:31 GMT Carl said:

Rene,

Verstappen astonished everyone at Interlagos.  Great photo of his outside pass of Rosberg!  For the moment, Nico is looking at the Red Bull rather than his line!

Carl, yes. That was an amazing drive from my young countryman. Even the Brazilians said this reminded them of Ayrton Senna, not a small compliment! Max demonstrated this special quality we see with wet weather specialists of finding alternative lines with better grip.

Also at Silverstone earlier that year he showed this quality. I was actually there that year and we where at Luffield, the twisty part. Max was fantastic there, the Mercs were the faster cars but he made up in those slower corners and drove different lines. Very impressive, also very much appreciated by the English crowd.

[chrisb]

Sir JC -

I just re-read a bit of Jim's autobiography the other day and looked back at his comments on the Lotus 23 and that magical drive, it really was astonishing and for me raised the playing field even higher, even 55 years on, it still was breathtaking how far in front he was after one lap- 28 seconds lead after one lap! 

but Jimmy at the old Spa [do we have any photo's of that?] in 1965 will always be my ultimate GP - mainly because he won by nearly 45 seconds and according to Jimmy's book both the BRM and Ferrari's were quicker but not only that he did most of the race one handed as the car kept jumping out of gear! when you think of that - i just find it mind-boggling-

[Deleted]

Jan 12, 2018 7:24:35 GMT chrisb said:

Sir JC -

I just re-read a bit of Jim's autobiography the other day and looked back at his comments on the Lotus 23 and that magical drive, it really was astonishing and for me raised the playing field even higher, even 55 years on, it still was breathtaking how far in front he was after one lap- 28 seconds lead after one lap! 

but Jimmy at the old Spa [do we have any photo's of that?] in 1965 will always be my ultimate GP - mainly because he won by nearly 45 seconds and according to Jimmy's book both the BRM and Ferrari's were quicker but not only that he did most of the race one handed as the car kept jumping out of gear! when you think of that - i just find it mind-boggling-

And in the last laps he was also battling with a slipping clutch(God konows how in the last 2 laps with that clutch he was over 10s faster than Stewart)

[chrisb]

thanks Valentin, just defies belief really and reinforces my feelings of his greatness

[mikael]

Jan 12, 2018 7:24:35 GMT chrisb said:

... but Jimmy at the old Spa [do we have any photo's of that?] in 1965

The attached photo is a personal favorite. Clark's eyes beam out "full concentration!" -- and looking at the wheels on the right-hand side the car seems to be in a state of serious aquaplaning.

(Source: ESPN)